Jack Monroe thread deletion

[MephistoMarley]

Is it just me or is this not an explanation as to why it was deleted?

^hread deleted
Message from MNHQ: Hi all - we are removing this thread^

Mumsnet is a general interest site; we moderate across a wide host of issues on a daily basis, and can’t claim to be experts in any one field. As a result, our policy in terms of Talk Guidelines and what we deem deletable has always been inclusive rather than exclusive: we find it more sustainable to operate under broad principles of mutual respect and courtesy, rather than specifying what users can and can’t say on any given topic

Ultimately, we think one of the real strengths of MN is that it allows users to have robust disagreements about difficult topics, but without hate speech, and without comments that are just plain mean (or personally directed at other posters.) If there are any posts that you think we need to look at please flag them up by hitting the 'Report' button and we'll always take a look

I'm asking because I'm concerned that there is a trend towards censoring debate around trans issues. I'm sure you did have a good reason to delete but I don't believe the message above communicates it. Could I request clarification please?

[WaitrosePigeon]

So HQ I trust that you'll be deleting all the other threads that slag off famous people too? Especially in Sleb Twaddle.

[MrsJayy]

Yet a nasty thread about a(Royal) toddler is allowed tostand slagging off a baby mumsnet is weird sometimes

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

I always find her an odd one. I've read some of her journalism and found it quite upsetting and offensive, and I would be a bit fed up if MN wouldn't let us discuss that sort of thing. But, again, she seems to have had a rough time and if there's a genuine risk she's actually going to see a thread, then perhaps it's a bit more in the region of personal attack?

[Iggi999]

The thing about a deleted thread (if it's about you) is that you are going to imagine it was much worse than it actually was!

[BeyondBeyondBeyondBeyondBeyond]

Whilst I love to debate JM as much as the next person, I think the difference is that 'xe' is on MN? Isn't 'xe'...?

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

Sorry, I wrote that before I refreshed.

MrsJ - but isn't it a little different given that a child won't be reading MN?! I grant, I've not seen that thread and there is something really unpleasant about criticising a toddler - so worth pulling on those grounds - but it isn't quite like a PA.

[RiverTam]

Read the thread, she's commented above!

I'm annoyed with MN, their stance is all over the shop. You delete a thread about a grown woman choosing to be in the public eye but leave one about a child who hasn't chosen to the in the public eye to stand. Explaination, please.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Any poster can push the Report button if they think it crosses a line or breaches MN Talk Guidelines. I assume that more posters reported more posts on the JM thread than do on those about the celebrities and politicians mentioned above.

The combination of personal attacks on JM, minimisation of on line threats, people reporting agressive use of Cis, wanting to gouge other's eyes out, posts stating intent to misgender, and the use of the phrase Subhuman fucktoilets was obviously enough to delete the whole thing.

[BorpBorpBorp]

When a thread starts veering towards a "debate around trans issues" it inevitably becomes a "debate" about trans people's right to exist. That discourse is harmful, and it is right that threads like that should be deleted.

[TheCountessofFitzdotterel]

'When a thread starts veering towards a "debate around trans issues" it inevitably becomes a "debate" about trans people's right to exist. '

!!!!!

That's one of the biggest lies I've read on here in 10 years of posting

[LilacSpunkMonkey]

Whether the child is reading the thread is irrelevant. It's really shitty to have a go at a small child, especially based on their looks. And it's cowardly, knowing that the child doesn't know it's going on. Really nasty behaviour.

[Lorelei76]

Robins "But, again, she seems to have had a rough time and if there's a genuine risk she's actually going to see a thread, then perhaps it's a bit more in the region of personal attack?"

well on a public forum you have to assume that all threads can be potentially be seen by anyone under discussion.

I don't think a pp point on politicians is valid - I think it's their policies or ideas for policies that are being discussed (at least I hope so) but if the reason for this thread deletion is "personal attack" then there are some other threads that need to go.

If not, then maybe MN needs to simply give a clear definition of what they consider to be transphobic and say they will not allow those threads.

I never flounced off from here but I did deregister because of what I considered to be a racist remark from a poster and it got heavily defended by other posters. I didn't report to MN because it's clear to me that I considered it racist but no one else did, so I figured it had to just be me, and after I cooled off, I rejoined.

It seems extraordinary to me that not a word can be uttered on the trans issue when so much prejudice is allowed to stand as opinion. Either it's all censored or none of it is.

[MrsJayy]

I didnt comment on the JM thread i did read it I think there was some attacking but if a person comes out and says stuff to a news paper then people are going to comment about that stuff in a newspaper switch Jack Monroe for caitlyn jenner it lasts for pages and pages or maybe Katie Price it just seems deletion is all over the place

[Lorelei76]

dione - that phrase was beyond revolting - but that should lead to the post being deleted, not the whole thread?

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

lore - yes, that's true. But I think there are two issues. One, this is someone who (if I understand rightly) was a MNer for years before becoming any kind of 'figure in the public eye'. So I think that makes a bit of a difference. Two, this is someone who is obviously struggling, and I would say there is a component of misogyny contributing to that struggle, and that's something MN has a reputation for combatting.

I do appreciate it's tricky, though, if people posted in good faith - but critically - without realising there would be a double standard about the deletions.

[Nydj]

And yet the thread about black lives matter was allowed to stand for ages - I believe that was a thread about real people too just, sadly, not alive anymore.

[PaulDacresMicroPenis]

Also dione I think your post may lead some people to believe that the phrase "subhuman fucktoilet" was used about Jack Monroe when it definitely wasn't.

[MackerelOfFact]

It was a thread based on an article in which a person with well-documented mental health issues mentioned reading a thread about herself on MN.

Regardless of anyone's opinion about her gender identity, surely it's just a bit horrible to frame arguments and comments about trans issues at an individual who is quite likely to read them, especially when they're a bit mentally fragile.

I didn't report it myself but reading last night made me uneasy.

[Lorelei76]

Robin "One, this is someone who (if I understand rightly) was a MNer for years before becoming any kind of 'figure in the public eye'. So I think that makes a bit of a difference. Two, this is someone who is obviously struggling, and I would say there is a component of misogyny contributing to that struggle, and that's something MN has a reputation for combatting. "

I can't see why the former point makes a difference I'm afraid. Maybe Kate Middleton was a former MNer!

component of misogyny - sorry, not seeing it myself. In fact half the issues I have with trans are rooted in misogyny.

[Lorelei76]

something else that worries me - if there is now an issue about creating such narrow stereotypes, at some point "woman" is going to exclude me not just because I don't wear dresses or make up but because I have not, and will never, have children.

Women have fought for years for so many things and I feel like it's all about to vanish rapidly.

[stopfuckingshoutingatme]

I am not surprised, there is a very vocal trans hating group on here, its for the best! Poor JM, I cant even imagine what was being written

[EmpressOfTheVaginaDentata]

I think reporting for "aggressive use of cis" is entirely justified. Plenty of us consider it to be an offensive & misogynist term.

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

Well, as I said, I do see it is a bit of judgment call, lore. And I wasn't on the thread, so I'm just commenting on my perception of MN's explanation.

I dislike the KM threads too. Never seen one I didn't think was deletion-worthy, really.

As to misogyny - no, this really is an issue. Monroe has had a lot of comments about appearance, parenting, etc., which I never see made of men. This doesn't mean there's no issue of internalised misogyny, because I think there is. But, equally, I would say Theresa May can display an awful lot of internalised misogyny - and yet, I would still expect MN to be a place that recognises the context for that internalised misogyny, and condemns it. You don't have to agree with someone 100%, to understand that they're facing a lot of shit. IMO.

[MyMurphy]

Aren't there much more important things in life that whatsher/hisnames view on what she/he should be called? Does she/he know what is happening in the world? (and hell, what do I call her/him?)