Trans people being allowed to compete against women in the Olympics

[OhShutUpThomas]

The Olympics are now allowing men who have taken hormones for 12 months compete against women.

It is NOT transphobic to say that this is grossly unfair and a huge violation of women's rights.

Women who have trained all their lives cannot be expected to compete against people with male bodies and who will be allowed roughly 4 times the normal female testosterone levels.

It's not on. We can't stand for it.

Please get behind this mumsnet. Someone needs to take a stand.

It's NOT transphobic to state that this is unfair. It really isn't.

Tell that to Adam gemili icebeing

Except you do actually see white people running in the Olympics. If we did away with the female category then you would never see women running.

"feeling female" does not make a person a female.
Having hormone therapy does not make a person a female.
Having artificial breasts implanted does not make a person a female.
They just don't. Anymore than delusions or medicine or surgery would make a cat into a mouse, or a giraffe.
In a way the IOC ruling is a red herring imo.
Because having one's penis surgically fashioned into a clitoris and vagina does not make a person a female.
Stop it. Stop redefining women and stop mutilating people's bodies as a "solution" to psychological issues. just stop.

This doesn't just affect elite athletes though. It affects all competitors in sport at any level.

Beyond that it is denying biological difference and asserting that the difference between a man and a woman is what goes on in our heads. I think that affects all of us. I am prepared to hear a different point of view, yet any discussion or questioning is closed down as transphobic, while it is virtually impossible to find any scientific explanation of how a year's hrt can turn a man into a woman.

The average white person won't beat the average black person in a sprint

Not actually true. However an average man is definitely stronger than an average woman.

in my (limited) experience of trans women and men I have to say some convince me a lot more than others the likes of C Jenner I still feel frosty towards but I try to be polite and civil about where as others I feel more able to relax and accept I don't know why this is. There is a deep issue that some men may be using this condition as an excuse to cheat..but they are not only cheating women but also transwomen to a certain extent

The average white person won't beat the average black person in a sprint

So what?

This, for me, is why this is about so much more than the Olympics and fair competition. The Olympics has very little to do with the average person.

sorry, that was a bit of a stroppy post. not helpful

I haven't read the full thread, so I apologise if this blogpost has already been posted - it includes a table of the biological differences between men and women:

thefeministahood.wordpress.com/2016/01/27/sex-segregated-sports/

I'm a tall woman. I'm quite sure i have at no point been a man. Perhaps i'm mistaken?

Thing is though Ice it's not just about the elite athletes. Elite athletes are just the top of a massive pyramid of women who take part in competitive and not so competitive sports. Club runners who take part in the local 10k will be equally miffed by being beaten by a trans woman. Girls who miss out on sports scholarships and training. It's not just the USA, in the UK some Uni's give bursaries and offers on sporting ability. (I think Birmingham does).

The ioc ruling just makes it easier to cheat. Having your dick cut off shows a lot of committment to the 'being a woman' thing. Taking pills for a year - hardly any committment at all. Which is why i fully expect to see a large increase in what i consider to be legal doping. I gather transmen will be allowed to take testosterone as well? Also legal doping. May as well let biological women take it too up to the limit for women. What a ridiculous situation.

For amateur sport, i bet noone ever checks. Those transwomen could be literally men in skirts/trackies

From the comments under that article maryz linked to, I thought this was interesting:

I have transitioned over the last 2 year. I used to be able to bicep curl 60+ lbs now I am struggling to curl 20 lbs. I dont have anywhere the same muscle as I used to. My arms were 19 ins now they are at 13in. And being a swimmer it wasnt bulk muscle but dense. In my hay day in hs I could match the world records of women but now theres just no way I could. it would take a ton of training and I am sure I would have to go off hrt to even come close. So really its no comparison.

So a random average bloke is admitting that he used to be able to match women's world records in high school. Not an elite athlete, note. Just a keen swimmer.

And that's a level playing field

Good point Bombadier how would this be checked in amateur leagues? It couldn't really happen.

Going back a few pages...

merrymouse
Fascicle, there are atleast 3 threads on this issue on MN. I am sure I'm not the only person who really can't understand the justification for this move by the IOC.

The IOC states its justifications on page 2 of the policy document:

www.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

Please, if you have an alternative point of view on this, something that would give us a different perspective, please could you share it.

I have no problem with transwomen competing in women's events. At this stage, I think it's very difficult for a layperson to judge how the rules will pan out until they're put into practice. Googling the IOC committee, no doubt they are qualified to make a decision - most are doctors and their expertise seems pretty relevant (members include a geneticist; endocrinologists; sports scientists; an intersex specialist; a retired female athlete who arguably missed out on an Olympic career because of old rules on genetic testing; ex Olympians who are also doctors; specialist sports lawyers etc etc. And a doctor who is also a transwoman).

I understand that there are concerns, but I think at this stage they are based on speculation and not evidence. If the IOC policy doesn't work, it will get changed. Its purpose is not to damage women's sport.

Maybe I'm too much of lay person to understand this, but how is it reasonable for a man who has made no medical transition and who could have a normal-for-a-male level of testosterone, to compete with a biological woman? I just don't get how that's reasonable. That summary doesn't explain it either it just outlines their decisions.

But despite all these assurances that women's fears are unfounded, it seems that wherever transsexual women are taking part in women's sport they are thrashing the women (literally in Fallon Fox's case).

Do we have to have a generation of women alienated from sport and missing out on opportunities and funding before the IOC say "hmm maybe they do have an advantage, time for a rethink".

It isn't reasonable, Culture. It's only reasonable if you truly believe that there is no difference between female humans and male ones who identify as women. And who does that...?

the result is that in effect you are just a tall woman

Oh, hang on.

No.

fascicle why would you trust the ioc? Looking at all the recent fiascos with drugs, Fifa, match fixing, and questionable sponsorship deals, why would it be assumed that any sports governing body know what they are doing?

There is no explanation on your link. The suggestion that a decision was made behind closed doors that is too complicated for lay people to understand is just dodging the question. If the reasoning is too complicated for a 'lay person' to understand, frankly it will also be over the heads of many (most? All?) of the members of the ioc. (There are a lot of minor royals).

yoy have basically argued that you support the change, but you don't know why and it is probably too complicated to understand.

I totally support Fallon Fox's desire to live as woman, I accept she has had a hard road to travel and her life has not been easy. I am quite willing to refer to her as 'her', but I think she needs to accept she has a medical condition which is incompatible with her ever competing in women's sport, being born with XY chromosomes just rules that out. There are still lots of things she can do with her life, but going into a ring and beating up XX women isn't, and shouldn't ever be, an option for her.

I can't decide I want to compete in the paralympics as a blind person by just shutting my eyes for a bit. Then, in a few year's time, deciding actually I fancy opening them and competing in the fully sighted event again (an option apparently open to anyone who takes female hormones for a year and then changes their mind?!).

In the same way the paralympics manages many different categories, transwomen can't just move into a category they don't belong in, because they feel they belong there, against scientific and biological evidence. They should compete in a trans category, if they wish to keep their gender identity private and not compete in the trans category, then they just need to join the other 99.9% of the population, who for one reason or another, will never be able to compete in elite athletics.

Totally agree Graceful.

Well said graceful