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Support...and condoning things you really cannot support

99 replies

SophiePen · 17/08/2015 20:57

I know this is controversial. It's about 'sleep training' as it's known. My personal position on it isn't totally relevant though I'll state now that I don't believe in anything that overrides the comforting instinct in a parent, or makes a child cry in the cause of totally undisturbed nights.

There are other forms I find far less concerning - no cry sleep solution, that sort of thing.

That's my views out of the way. The issue I am having is this. MN is a site intended to provide support to parents, but where do we draw the line?

It is different, of course, but not so long ago it was considered fine to smack a child in the cause of 'good behaviour' - now it is very much more frowned upon in a social sense and also illegal to some degree, depending on how hard you want to hit them.

I don't feel that being supportive of a parent who wishes to smack their child as some sort of plan to make them behave, would be in the interests of the child or the parent concerned.

I also feel this way about people leaving children to cry, or not lifting them up when they cry, and it makes me very uncomfortable indeed to see threads about CC and even occasionally CIO where people are offering support for this sort of system.

I am NOT someone who posts about child abuse on these threads. I try and stay polite, supportive in any way I can (though not saying I think it is right) and often just hide and try and forget I read it.

It's very painful to read that sort of thing, to me - I remember crying in the night for hours, many many times and no one coming.

I hope one day that our society will move on from not listening to infants when they cry and realise that it is good for them and for us to not ignore feelings in this way, however for the time being, is there any sort of sense of right or wrong in this area, on the part of MNHQ - shouldn't we be encouraging people to respond to their babies, not to do something that makes them cry, and so on?

A lot of people seem to think they have to sleep train, that they are failing in their parenting if they don't. Sometimes they are relieved to be told that they don't have to ignore their instincts and it's alright to pick up the baby and won't 'make a rod for their back'.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't know if there is a place for support with these methods on here. I honestly feel so sick when I read another thread about a chil crying for hours and people saying 'well done' to the person fighting every mothering bone in their body not to pick them up.

To me, it's like people saying 'yay! You need to teach them not to behave like that - it's for their own good, they will forget about it by tomorrow' when a poster is documenting their physical chastisement of a small child.

That would not happen on here. I guess people see it differently, but to me, the pain in reading about it feels very very similar indeed. And I know I'm not the only one.

I hope this doesn't piss people off too much. I know how awful it is not to sleep but I feel that the adult is the one who needs to adapt, not the infant, and you're more likely to get a result that way too.

Thanks if anyone got this far.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 17/08/2015 22:08

The thing is though, OP, that if a thread was started where a poster was totally in support of smacking and others agreed, MN would let it stand because it does not break guidelines. In fact I've seen lots of posters defend smacking as a parenting technique over the years. Of course they are usually countered by posters who are anti-smacking as that is the general feeling.

I also dislike CC and CIO and I tend to click away from threads which talk about them, because most of the time I don't really feel I can give advice about alternatives, and sometimes it would not be appropriate (if the poster does not want alternatives, for example).

Although posters are saying this isn't the case, I have found in the past that gentle parenting forums do tend to err on the side of disapproving of CC and you would be more likely to find that threads on those sites go the way of smacking threads on MN - that if there are any supporters, they are few and mostly drowned out by posters being anti-sleep training.

I think you have two choices really; hide the sleep forum here and avoid clicking on any threads which seem likely to mention sleep training, or move to a forum which is more geared towards attachment parenting.

If you genuinely believe that there may be a movement, generally, towards sleep training being thought of as barbaric and old fashioned, then you might be comforted by the thought that every post on a forum like this about alternatives to crying-based sleep training methods is a tiny step in the right direction. As such, it might be beneficial for you to post things which have worked for you which aren't based on these methods. But if you are finding it distressing to view the threads at all it might be much better just to hide them, and know that there are plenty of posters who post alternatives and that it's not your personal responsibility to bring that change about. I tend to stay away from US parenting forums for the reason of two things which I find upsetting; routine infant circumcision and much more acceptance of smacking as normal discipline. I did used to post on them but it became too much and I stick to MN now.

SkullyCat · 17/08/2015 22:09

Controlled Crying and CIO are two very different things.

I didnt do either with my kids, DS who has ADHD/ASD i did a form of lengthened gradual withdrawal with, and DD i co-slept with for nearly 3 years because DS has never, and will never sleep well, so her sleeping well was more important.

Quite frankly, after nearly 9 years of living on 3-6hrs sleep a night (Average maybe 4) i have to say, if there was a magic cure to make children sleep through, i'd give my right arm for it!

BIWI · 17/08/2015 22:26

"It is a really unhelpful idea and unrealistic expectation that babies should be able to sleep through the night."

Why on earth do you think this is true? Once babies get past the point of needing to be fed every 2-3 hours, they are quite capable of sleeping through the night. And it's as it should be. It's important that we put in place good habits so that our children are encouraged to self-settle, and sleep through the night.

You are totally deluded, OP, if you think that CC involves leaving children to cry for hours on end. I'm sorry if this happened to you, but if you read up about CC, you'll see that leaving the child to cry is for very short periods of time.

Oh, and - newsflash - it's a method that works! We had to do it for DS1, and it took less than 3 days to see him sleeping through the night without waking up - even though he was only 4.5 months old. The longest he was ever left to cry was 7 minutes.

I reckon that 3 days of that, for minimal periods of crying, was well worth it. Not just for him - as he then continued to have really good sleep habits - but also for us parents (and especially me) as we had to go to work and to be able to work with all our mental faculties intact!

RabbitSaysWoof · 17/08/2015 22:34

I would find cosleeping akin to hell on earth and actually think it is positively dangerous in some circumstances.
I wouldn't dream of demanding that every tread that recommend it be banned.
^^
This
And I was the one who said she wont remember in the morning, and then the lovely last update on that thread is that the child slept through last night and took less time to settle (only the 2nd night). The op on the thread is pregnant, has a 7 year old to see to as well as the non sleeper almost 1 year old and nearly crashed a car on Friday through tiredness!!

I think it's ironic that so many 'gentle' parents on this site are so brutal when it comes to other adults.
I really don't support you keeping babies up until nearly 10pm tho, mine is in he's bed at 7, really I don't think mn should condone it.

gamerchick · 17/08/2015 22:44

Get it out of your system OP.

Maybe hide the threads that upset you before opening them in future if you cant face them. It's easier on the head.

Maryz · 17/08/2015 23:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RepeatAdNauseum · 17/08/2015 23:20

I remember crying through the night and no one coming, too.

I also have no problem with sleep training, if the parent feels it is the right decision.

The first one is neglect, pure and simple. I remember it vividly, but I was much older than an infant. It probably occured from three to six, when I stopped expecting anyone to come.

The second causes no scientifically proven harm, and has benefits to both the baby and the family, eventually.

If it becomes illegal, MN will have to change its stance.

Until then, this is sanctimonious and naval gazing, really. You need to split out what happened to you and other people's sleeping decisions.

Let's not forget that cosleeping is no without risk.

peacefuleasyfeeling · 17/08/2015 23:58

Hey Yonic, that's not what I meant at all. I think we all matter and I'm sorry that's how it came across. But I do think that we are set up to have unrealistic expectations of what is the norm as far as natural baby sleep behaviour is concerned. At no point did anyone say to me: "You're going to be so fucked from sleep deprivation that... insert your own personal low point, so start thinking about how you're going to manage." I wouldn't have been able to even imagine what it would feel like, anyway. DD1 only began to sleep through last Christmas, aged 4 and a half, after 4 years of crap sleep owing to confusional arousal (which no amount of sleep training could ever have fixed Grin ), which thankfully she's outgrown now.
Collectively, there will never be agreement on CC and CIO, or even agreement to disagree, there's such a lot of conviction, conscience and judgement. I usually have the good sense to look away when I see threads like these. But I feel sorry for OP who is getting her head bitten off for being judgey; MN is hugely judgemental in all sorts of areas and it is not uncommon for people to judge, sometimes very harshly, the parenting choices of other posters, friends or people on the bus and survive the thread fairly intact. Mention CC, CIO breast-feeding or cosleeping and emotions run high...

EatShitDerek · 18/08/2015 01:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicScrewdriver · 18/08/2015 06:45

Derek! Blasphemy!

Shock Grin
RiverTam · 18/08/2015 07:13

Steady on Derek.

There will never be agreement on CC and CIO yes there is agreement on CIO, no-one thinks it a good idea. Stop putting the two together! THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!!!!!

Ubik1 · 18/08/2015 07:27

Well this is a new one Grin

Op - are you feeling ok?

Sparklingbrook · 18/08/2015 07:40

There must be loads of topics on MN that people don't want to read or find upsetting. Most of us will have a list.

It sounds to me that the OP doesn't want to avoid the threads but to wave a magic wand and solve all the sleep problems somehow. Like a crusade.

ShowMeTheWonder · 18/08/2015 08:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hobnobsaremyfavourite · 18/08/2015 08:31

I am off to compile a list of topics that should never be mentioned.....

Ubik1 · 18/08/2015 09:48

Drinking water

RiverTam · 18/08/2015 09:51

Really good post from ShowMe.

Garlick · 18/08/2015 09:58

ShowMe, I'm really glad you took the trouble to explain about CC because I couldn't be bothered to! In everyday life, I think, people do use it as a synonym for 'crying it out'. The reality's more like a methodical version of old-fashioned soothing.

Still don't know why this is in site stuff, though Grin

ShowMeTheWonder · 18/08/2015 10:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WicksEnd · 18/08/2015 10:39

I think the op is still gently rocking her baby to sleep.

I did CC, I had to go back to work & was pregnant with no2. dS1 was 11 months, it took 2 nights. Bingo. He's now 15. I've asked him if he's traumatised by 2 nights of CC and seen as he cant remember actually being 11 months, then no, he's not.

He slept, we slept & I was a better mum for it. Ok he was an early riser, but I could cope with that as he slept 6.30 -6am.

Of course teething/illness throws it and out goes the rule book, but if you can remember being left to cry for hours on end then that's nothing to do with CC. Why can't you see that?

You've made me quite cross actually. I could have missed the cc bit and kept them up until 10pm like you do, but what use is that when I'd have to wake a baby up before they're ready the following morning?

SoupDragon · 18/08/2015 10:43

I can not for the life of me work out what the OP wants to gainfromthei thread and what on earth it has to do with MNHQ

Is she really equating CC with slapping a child and child abuse?

Funinthesun15 · 18/08/2015 21:17

I can not for the life of me work out what the OP wants to gainfromthei thread and what on earth it has to do with MNHQ

Me neither Confused

RabbitSaysWoof · 18/08/2015 22:07

Just watched three day nanny and all I could think of was SophiePen sending a strongly worded email to channel4 about the bed time crying.

Funinthesun15 · 19/08/2015 05:44

I read this thread just after that programme Smile

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