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Support...and condoning things you really cannot support

99 replies

SophiePen · 17/08/2015 20:57

I know this is controversial. It's about 'sleep training' as it's known. My personal position on it isn't totally relevant though I'll state now that I don't believe in anything that overrides the comforting instinct in a parent, or makes a child cry in the cause of totally undisturbed nights.

There are other forms I find far less concerning - no cry sleep solution, that sort of thing.

That's my views out of the way. The issue I am having is this. MN is a site intended to provide support to parents, but where do we draw the line?

It is different, of course, but not so long ago it was considered fine to smack a child in the cause of 'good behaviour' - now it is very much more frowned upon in a social sense and also illegal to some degree, depending on how hard you want to hit them.

I don't feel that being supportive of a parent who wishes to smack their child as some sort of plan to make them behave, would be in the interests of the child or the parent concerned.

I also feel this way about people leaving children to cry, or not lifting them up when they cry, and it makes me very uncomfortable indeed to see threads about CC and even occasionally CIO where people are offering support for this sort of system.

I am NOT someone who posts about child abuse on these threads. I try and stay polite, supportive in any way I can (though not saying I think it is right) and often just hide and try and forget I read it.

It's very painful to read that sort of thing, to me - I remember crying in the night for hours, many many times and no one coming.

I hope one day that our society will move on from not listening to infants when they cry and realise that it is good for them and for us to not ignore feelings in this way, however for the time being, is there any sort of sense of right or wrong in this area, on the part of MNHQ - shouldn't we be encouraging people to respond to their babies, not to do something that makes them cry, and so on?

A lot of people seem to think they have to sleep train, that they are failing in their parenting if they don't. Sometimes they are relieved to be told that they don't have to ignore their instincts and it's alright to pick up the baby and won't 'make a rod for their back'.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't know if there is a place for support with these methods on here. I honestly feel so sick when I read another thread about a chil crying for hours and people saying 'well done' to the person fighting every mothering bone in their body not to pick them up.

To me, it's like people saying 'yay! You need to teach them not to behave like that - it's for their own good, they will forget about it by tomorrow' when a poster is documenting their physical chastisement of a small child.

That would not happen on here. I guess people see it differently, but to me, the pain in reading about it feels very very similar indeed. And I know I'm not the only one.

I hope this doesn't piss people off too much. I know how awful it is not to sleep but I feel that the adult is the one who needs to adapt, not the infant, and you're more likely to get a result that way too.

Thanks if anyone got this far.

OP posts:
peacefuleasyfeeling · 17/08/2015 21:41

shudders with relief at seeing such sincerity and sense on this contentious and sensitive issue It is a really unhelpful idea and unrealistic expectation that babies should be able to sleep through the night. If new parents got real about this and accepted that babies wake periodically during the course of the night, they would perhaps make different decisions. I have, like most, suffered sleep deprivation as a result of having babies who do their natural thing. Pretty horrendous, but I had them and I take responsibility for managing this in the gentlest, most respectful way possible, co-sleeping in my case, has meant the least amount of disruption possible and no crying babies or toddlers. Just be nice to the babies!

BeautifulBatman · 17/08/2015 21:42

Sophie, first of all, CC does not involve leaving a child to cry for hours and hours.
Second of all, there aren't enough biscuits in the world for you. But here's one to start with. FFS. Biscuit

Garlick · 17/08/2015 21:43

You can't support someone by telling them what they do is wrong.

Support doesn't automatically mean agreeing with everything the asker says/does, either. But if you can't empathise with their situation, you can't support them. Therefore your place is not on their thread.

I've no idea why you posted this in Site Stuff Confused

People do a lot of things I dislike - 'controlled crying' is one of them - but I don't go around demanding my media ban users who do them! I'll argue if there's a debate going on but, otherwise, I walk away. Not my monkey (or baby).

MorrisZapp · 17/08/2015 21:45

Sometimes I hate the word 'support'. It can come across as meaning 'passive aggressive coercion'.

When people are broken and begging for help, they don't need a guilt trip.

hobnobsaremyfavourite · 17/08/2015 21:45

Poor you op Sad mine have been in bed for hours and I have my lovely big bed all to myself
I pity you your lack of space and time.
See I wouldn't post that usually as I tend to think whatever floats your boat but hey if you want to judge other people's choices don't be surprised when people judge your choices.

WorraLiberty · 17/08/2015 21:46

I would very much like a change in the culture on here to reflect the fact that for some of us, these methods do not sit right at all, and also encouraging the more gentle methods of trying to get your baby to sleep.

What are you talking about?

Sleep training has always been a fairly controversial issue on MN, and on tons of threads people make their views known...either for or against.

There doesn't need to be a 'change in culture'. If you don't want to post in support of sleep training then don't.

But I hardly think anyone's going to take you up on the offer of popping round to hold their baby in the night, or bunging them a bar of Dairy Milk...

Sparklingbrook · 17/08/2015 21:46

Where are all these hundreds of CC threads?

I did co sleeping. It was grim. I didn't get a wink of sleep while the baby lay star shaped simultaneously punching both me and DH in the face in their sleep.

FifteenFortyNine · 17/08/2015 21:47

Sometimes I hate the word 'support'. It can come across as meaning 'passive aggressive coercion'.

This ^

SecretNutellaFix · 17/08/2015 21:48

If your understanding of CC is that the child is left alone for hours alone to cry it out then you don't undertand the theory behind it.

For some parents, especially those who have had to return to work and need to be fully alert it is a solution that a lot of people have found works. Or would you prefer that your surgeon or lawyer made critical mistakes due to exhaustion caused by sleep deprivation?

Just because it doesn't tally with your own personal child rearing techniques doesn't mean that it's wrong. It's different.

SillyStuffBiting · 17/08/2015 21:49

Sophie fwiw, I get what you're saying.

Maryz · 17/08/2015 21:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MythicalKings · 17/08/2015 21:50

I think you need to mind your own business. I never had to think about resorting to CC but I would never say never.

Keep your nose out.

TeddyBear5 · 17/08/2015 21:51

^Self importance? No, I just feel very strongly about this particular issue.

How does that make me self important any more than anyone else with a view on things?^

Because everyone has their own ideas on parenting and everyone (most people) think they right about them. But you are so sure you are right that you are trying to censor other people's POV on a national parenting forum.

BeautifulBatman · 17/08/2015 21:51

Sillystuff care to enlighten the rest of us? To me it looks like she's asking for any pro CC talk to be banned. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

MmeLindor · 17/08/2015 21:52

Um, could we not jump on the OP for expressing her opinion? It is clear from her OP that she has deep personal issues with the thought of CC.

Sophie
If you can remember being left to cry, then I'm assuming that you were older than a baby? I'm sorry if you find these threads upsetting, but I don't see CC on par with smacking.

I do see what you are getting at, but by the time someone posts on Mumsnet about this, they're often at the end of their tether. Fwiw, I'm very much a fan of the 'gentle parenting' methods, but after 3 years of disturbed sleep, I did do sleep training with my DS. It took a few nights, but eventually he slept through the night.

I don't think it would be possible to say 'You can't do CC because it's not Mumsnet philosophy'. Even if this were a gentleparentingmumsnet.com, it would not be ok. We are all adults, and we parent our children to the best of our ability, and in the way we think is right. To make decisions for other parents is really not the way to go.

You really have two options - either hide the threads, or post in support and give some advice on alternative methods to CC (but don your hard hat first!)

munchkinmaster · 17/08/2015 21:52

Sophie's, it sounds like some aspects of your childhood were grim. I wonder, if you have had an opportunity to talk or think this through.

I'm not into controlled crying but even I know it's not the same as letting an older child cry for hours.

RiverTam · 17/08/2015 21:53

For god's sake, how many fucking times does it need to be said - CC does not involve leaving your child to cry for hours on end. That you think it does suggests that you haven't even bothered to look into what this thing is that bothers you so much. And whilst some people do support CC I have never, not once, read any support of CIO.

This is all bullshit.

BeautifulBatman · 17/08/2015 21:55

Yy River

NoelHeadbands · 17/08/2015 21:55

I'm actually staggered at your arrogance.
Anything else you feel you 'cant support' and therefore want to see banned for discussion here? Do let us know won't you.

Jedi1 · 17/08/2015 21:56

You are overprotecting your own issues onto other people. If you cannot being yourself to read the threads, apart from sometimes when you comment on them, just hide them.

I'm sorry if you were left crying for hours but that is not CC.

Jedi1 · 17/08/2015 21:57

Astoundingly arrogant too.

YonicScrewdriver · 17/08/2015 21:57

". If new parents got real about this and accepted that babies wake periodically during the course of the night, they would perhaps make different decisions. "

I think everybody knows this. DS2 did not sleep through the night until he was 3. It made me very unwell and very unhappy. But I guess I matter not, huh?

coffeeisnectar · 17/08/2015 21:58

Cc doesn't mean leaving them to cry for hours. Nothing like it.

I trained my oldest by letting her cry longer before going into her and then not picking her up (because she would stop crying when I went in), sitting with her making soothing noises and stroking her cheek until she started drifting off and then leaving. The gap got longer and she learned to self settle very quickly.

My youngest didn't sleep through until she was four. I was exhausted beyond belief and I tried everything. She's nearly 10 and is still up half the night.

If co sleeping worked then why hasn't it worked with her? Because I caved in and let her sleep in my bed for two years but she still woke up. Every single fucking night.

She's now been referred to CAMHS and I'm hoping a sleep clinic because none of us can cope any more.

LingDiLong · 17/08/2015 22:01

I agree with MaryZ entirely. I tried every bloody method available with my 2nd and 3rd child. Having encountered so many people like you OP online, I was utterly determined that I wouldn't risk 'damanging' my babies with sleep training. We co-slept, I breastfed through the night on demand, I did gradual retreat, white noise, sh-pat, pick up - put down. I read the No Cry Sleep Solution. None of it worked, none. I eventually got to the point where I nearly passed out from exhaustion while alone with my baby and toddler and did CC. With my 3rd I repeated the whole thing - wracked with guilt after reading more threads with people like you on OP - again, determined to avoid CC. It felt eventually like I would lose my mind if I didn't get some sleep. We're not talking waking a few times a night by the way OP, that would have been bliss! We're talking chronic sleep issues that involved being woken relentlesly every 30 - 60 minutes a night for over a year/being awake for around 4-5 hours in the middle of the night again and again.

I think your view that people who are against CC are some kind of persecuted minority is just that - your view and your persepctive. I have often felt that the pervading view on here is firmly anti-CC.

HoneyDragon · 17/08/2015 22:01

Op. No matter how much hand wringing you dress it up in, you are basically demanding MNHQ suppress conversation about a method you find distasteful.

You can wail "think of the children" all you want. But on a parenting site where people are asking advice and thoughts on parenting it's pretty much a given that the children are been thought of. You just want everyone to think your way.