What is going on with personal attacks/disablist language being left to stand?!

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

I've just seen that the term 'fucking retarded' was left to stand, and the poster who reported it was told it shouldn't be deleted.

That really shocks me and I think it's a real shame coming from MNHQ.

I saw this because the person reporting started a thread asking whether the term were acceptable or not, and it's been deleted with no explanation except that it was 'against talk guidelines'.

I know it was a TAAT (as is this), but generally, threads asking reasonable questions are left to stand for a little, with an explanation from HQ on them. I'm hoping for a better result here in Site Stuff, as it seems to me it's a pretty important question.

Are you defending a policy of not deleting insults like 'fucking retarded'? Is it now unacceptable to question that sort of thing? And does it have to do with this ongoing issue with threads about feminism - which is where the term was used, and in the context of some very nasty (undeleted) attacks on feminist posters.

What do you mean by agist?

I don't know what kind of campaign would work tbh.

agist cos it had a cut of. was just for children. so anyone with a child over 18......

Well that was depressing. I've just left a Facebook because I got fed up arguing with the moderators over the term Moron, that was used by one of them. Apparently it was alright for them to use it in this particular 'context' as they weren't saying using it to insult someone disabled and anyway they have kids with learning difficulties so that's ok. Apparently I'm over reacting by being offended that the moderators of 'Want my space? Take my disability" feel that this is an acceptable insult as it's no longer in common use for those with disabilities.

MN is a grim place today

I have just read a thread about behaviour a recital or something similar. The intolerance and willful use disabilist language is heartbreaking. Grim is an excellent term.

Yes. I have now left that thread because it's just turning into personal attacks on me now. Which is fun.

Fanjo, you are my MN hero..I don't know how you continue to speak up thread after thread.

I am foolhardy I think.

Doesn't seem to achieve anything though to be honest.

Except a good ass roasting for moi.

It is exhausting, I expect. I hope you do things to take care of yourself. You seem fabulous at looking after others. Strong, outspoken women still need rest and care too.

Not enough. Have got concussion at moment. Arguing on MN is not fab for the dizziness. So have stopped :)

Many thanks for the nice words

Oh, Fanjo...have sent you a Pm :(... Please take care..

Have got concussion at moment

Did you get it from banging your head repeatedly on your desk? That thread is shocking!

Seriously though, I hope your head is OK, have you seen a doctor? Concussions can be nasty business.

I saw A and E the day after. But will go back to GP on Monday

I think that the difficulty is that often, these are medical terms that actually describe conditions and are then seized on as terms of abuse and it's that that leads to them being considered disablist.

I work in MH in the UK and saw someone last year that the Dr I was with (from elsewhere in Europe) later referred to as retarded. In the clinically appropriate use of the word and he was upset and confused when I told him we don't use that term.

Spasticity is a medical term that was abused and then when the spastic society changed their name, people used 'a bit scopey' as a term of abuse. Same as 'special needs, a bit special or he's a spesh' are now all terms of abuse and discrimination.

We can object as much as we like about certain terms. It's not the terms that are the problem - it is the lack of understanding and knowledge of what that term may mean that is the problem.

We'll understandably object to the terms and then when we replace them - those 'acceptable' new terms will still become shorthand for a disablist opinion.

It's attitudes we need to fight, not words.

Well yes.

It's not often someone objects to the use of medical/technical terms in context.

What I object to - and I don't give much of a toss how often medical terms get appropriated - is the idea that when you want to be as rude and contemptuous as possible, you reach for a word that describes SN/disability.

So yes the attitude is the problem but in the meantime we have to focus on the words so that people can't do the 'well yes but the words keep changing and it's hard to keep up'
Stop using them as an insult

On a tangential point - I have seen/heard 'autistic' used (about apparently NT people) as an insult/criticism so many times recently. It seemed to start with the Gordon Brown debacle a few years ago.

I think Paggy's criterion of 'contemptuous' is important.

I agree Pag - completely. But I don't think that everyone knows what those terms may mean or how they may be abusive. And again, the term itself isn't offensive but if it's used abusively then it may be - but I don't think the user always knows that.

Retarded means clinically - someone that isn't functioning intellectually, socially or emotionally the same as their peers.

I think a lot of people in society think 'retarded' means someone stupid, slow or 'backward'. If they mean someone on a thread here that they think is stupid then I think they're ignorant but I wouldn't necessarily think they were being deliberately abusive or disablist.

I'm not defending anyone,.just saying that many, many people don't have direct experience of disabilities or knowledge of them. It's the education we need to do rather than say these words are wrong and offensive and delete you for it - we need to try to inform (in my humble opinion).

I'm quite happy for us to disagree ain'tgonna - I enjoy other people's views

I'm never going to get excercised about whether the person shouting 'retard' at my son, or the person saying 'fucking retarded' has some nuanced understanding about what it actually means.
I'm not responsible for educating the public. I come here to chat and mess around and I don't have to put up with that stuff.
So they can be deleted and go away and figure out how to conduct themselves in a way that conforms with the ethos of the site.

Respect to you Pag - sensible exchange of views with both of us agreeing it's shit when it's abused. I've been out with my much loved foster brother ('severe' Autism and LD) aged 19 now but I've taken him out since he was 8 and heard comments and ignorant terms.

My career means I object to bigots and not the words they use and wouldn't censor those words without thinking they knew what they meant.

But some of those people are probably discriminatory twats but as a HCP I try to not view people as twats.

Oh my God - two people on MN with experience of the subject not really agreeing but respecting each others views and not resorting to PA or head tilts!.

I shall go have a glass of something to celebrate

I think I am going to have a break from ever mentioning my ds on these threads, or of bothering to try and 'educate'.

There seem to be a shitstorm of threads laying into posters who point out that something is disabilist at the moment. My favourite post has just popped up, 'Why should children with SN have to get everything they want and behave how they want all the time?' I mean, really? Is that what people think, are they really so fucking dense. I just don't think I can be bothered any more.

I have been told I have no sense of humour, suck the fun out of a thread, am professionally offended, think my child's needs trump the needs of others, and so on.

I (nearly) always try and post with good humour and be balanced. I might just start posting Go Fuck Yourself Arsehat, and see where that gets me (banned obviously!)

In the meantime I shall stick to talking about bell tents and tv shows for a bit!

hazey

Well I fail to see any appeal in me posting on MN for a good while.