I wonder if having a Transgender topic might be useful?

[LaurieFairyCake]

It seems like a growth area and quite often discussed.

It would be helpful for the threads to hang about for longer than 30 days so people could be pointed in the direction of them
too.

[TheXxed]

Can we get a transracial section too?

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

Ego did you only read the first paragraph of my post?

You don't think the debates are one sided, have partial information and use the examples of some trans activists to demonise an entire group?

As I said in my second paragraph - 'These are not 'trans threads', they are threads about women's rights and how these are being eroded by a small (but disproportionately powerful) group of people who at best don't give a shit about women, their wellbeing and safety, and at worst actively hate women. This affects us all, including those of us who have trans people in our lives who we love and respect, and including ordinary trans people who are being used as pawns in some really ugly politics.'

I am completely not bothered about how trans people choose to live their lives, right up to the point where women's rights begin to be eroded. Then I start to care.

Trans activists and their actions should not be used to attack and demonise all trans people.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, trans activists and their actions are attacking the rights of all women and demonising any women who are not totally happy about this. Do we have to put NATALT (Not All Trans Are Like That) at the end of every post?

Can you explain what you mean by this? -

I will NEVER accept that women should surrender hard-won rights to those born male

And that is the dilemma MNHQ face.

Very different viewpoints.

• because it reads as if you think that women should surrender their rights.
  

I do think that those calling posters transphobic should be willing to back that up with examples, otherwise it's just a baseless slur.

[TheXxed]

TiggyD I find your comparison to the BNP extremely offensive. I had the misfortune of living in Barking when the BNP were making gains in local government. The intimidation I felt, the constant fear of violence and actual violence I experience is not mirrored on these threads.

I really fucking grates on me when people use others peoples lived experience and make false equivalencies to things that make them feel uncomfortable.

[albertcampionscat]

Um. As a feminist I find the transgender threads on here puzzling and uncomfortable - they're this alternative world where what a couple of extremist fuckwits who happen to be trans say on the internet is taken far too seriously and used to smear all trans people.

[QueenStromba]

If we're all such horrible transphobes and bigots on the chat threads then why were we so nice to Miranda Yardley when she popped in?

[FloraFox]

Is Tiggy trying to stop women talking about things that concern them again? What a surprise.

[BeccaMumsnet]

Hi everyone - thank you for all your posts on this thread.

We currently have two topics: one for LGBT Parents and one for LGBT Children and we do feel that these cover any parenting related issues.

Any other issues are generally posted about in topics like Chat or In the News which we think is doing the job at the moment.

[RufusTheReindeer]

lunch

I did report that one

[QueenStromba]

How do you suggest we discuss these issues then? With your feelings put above those of women?

[QueenStromba]

You never offer any solutions, just shout down the solutions that other people suggest. You really don't help your cause.

[EhricLovesTheBhrothers]

Repeated use of born male

Please explain how it's transphobic to say that trans women were born male? By all reasonable definitions of the word male, they were. Pretending otherwise is not rational or helpful to anyone, least of all trans people.

[TheXxed]

Really Ego you know how Muslims feel??? Is your home being drone bombed? Are your toddlers being screened for extremism? Your at 10 I suggest you bring it down to a 2.

[QueenStromba]

If trans people don't like being lumped in with the transactivists then they should speak up against them. I don't think anyone sees trans people as a homogenous mass though. I think everyone is smart enough to realise that just because some transwomen are rapists, it doesn't mean they all are etc. It does mean that women need protection from the rapists though.

[FantasticButtocks]

What does cis mean? (I have no knowledge about this subject whatsoever but have found many arguments about it on here recently and am intrigued...)

From my position of ignorance, the impression I'm getting is that people who've changed from male to female are saying they want people to discount the fact they were born male and grew up as boys, and accept them as actual women? And some women are saying that these people will retain some maleness as their brains haven't been changed, and are not actual women?

I've never heard the term transphobic before either, but I guess it is supposed to be like homophobic, but prejudiced against people who've changed sex?

I'm no intellectual and not a scientist either, so I'm sure there is much more complexity to it. Perhaps keeping these discussions in places like chat or mainstream areas will give more people a chance to understand what this is about.

The one thing I really don't understand is talk of people 'identifying' as something other than they are... it sounds as though if a man 'identifies' as a woman but doesn't have a sex change, then he should be treated like a woman and allowed in women-only spaces?

[QueenStromba]

You're entirely right Buttocks.

cis (along with trans) comes from chemistry and means on the same side (as opposed to on the other side for trans). So transgender means that a person's internal gender identity does not match with their sex while cisgender means that a person's internal gender identity matches with their sex. Trans people and their supporters like to apply it to everyone who is not trans. The problem with this is that it assumes that everyone who is not trans has an internal gender identity whereas most women (and probably men) don't seem to actually have an internal gender identity.

[HermioneWeasley]

buttocks your understanding of the arguments is spot on. Yes, many argue that "feeling like" or "identifying as" a woman makes you so, and you should therefore have access to women only spaces, regardless of physically appearance or biology.

70-80% of trans women never have a full sex change op. They might take hormones or have breast implants or wear traditionally "female" clothes, or in some cases do nothing and still have a beard but declare they identify as a woman so anyone who says they're not is a horrible bigot.

[SparklingCallisto]

WTF do you think trans people think about that idea [that transwomen were "born male"]?

I think that some transwomen would recognise that as a biological fact, and others would dispute it, because they unfortunately are suffering from a delusion. And others would dispute it because they don't understand the most basic facts of biology. And still others would dispute it because it suits their political agenda to dispute it. Different people would respond to that statement in different ways, what a shock. Their reactions wouldn't stop it from being anything more or less than a biological fact.

A person born with a Y chromosome, male genitalia and all other biological features of maleness, who genuinely believes himself to be of the female sex and to have been born female, has a delusion. From Oxford: Delusion (n): An idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

To say this isn't unkind, or hateful, or transphobic, or bigoted. To label these facts with those words is to buy into the idea that there is something shameful about having a mental disorder. There isn't. There shouldn't be a stigma about it, and people who consider themselves to be transgender shouldn't be discriminated against any more than people with anorexia should be. Or schizophrenia, or biopolar disorder, or dissociative personality disorder. They should be full and equal members of society and treated with respect and compassion. They should have access to reasonable accommodation like anyone else who has a disorder or disability. Maybe this means access private bathrooms or changing rooms. Maybe it means that if there's a women's support group set up by a university, there must also be equal accommodation (the use of a room, a budget if applicable) made for a trans support group, if there are trans people who wish to establish one.

But what it doesn't mean, is that the rest of society has to throw away reality and rational argument, and pretend that delusion is fact. And it doesn't mean that people who were born female should be any less safe, or should be made to feel any less safe, or should be made to feel any less comfortable in female spaces, or should be less accurately represented in records of achievements or crimes or pay rates or any other statistic that means something to women, or should be hindered in their discussions and activism on issues important to women.

I am very close to and supportive of my schizophrenic relative, and I have an enormous about of love and respect and admiration for him. But I don't pretend for his benefit that he's absolutely right about the house being bugged by the CIA, and I don't feel compelled to live my life as if that were true, whispering into the ears of the rest of the family, out of respect for someone else's delusion.

[FloraFox]

I am coming to think that the often-stated idea that there is a small number of extremists who are causing all the trouble while most MTTs don't agree with them is not true. Stating that it is hateful or bigoted to use the words "born make" is an extremist position. Equating the experience of middle class white men with Muslims is extremist.

The "tiny" number of extremists seem to be doing a great job of writing for mainstream media outlets and getting laws changed. I frankly don't care how representative they are of the overall population of MTTs as the supposed non-extremists are doing fuck all for women except telling them how mean and horrible they are