I wonder if having a Transgender topic might be useful?

[LaurieFairyCake]

It seems like a growth area and quite often discussed.

It would be helpful for the threads to hang about for longer than 30 days so people could be pointed in the direction of them
too.

I agree Flora. Let's not forget insisting on using women's facilities even if there are non-sexed facilities available and insisting that it wouldn't matter if the person doing your smear was male as long as you thought they were female.

The problem is that no matter what the ins and outs are of gender and sex, there's a conflict between the needs of transwomen and the needs of biological women on a practical day to day level and the law is currently set up to favour the needs of one over the other.

Both groups face harm and discrimination but instead of looking for solutions that ensure no harm or discrimination is done to either group, we're all concentrating on what we each think is the lesser harm. For me that entails prioritising the needs of biological women and for others, it entails prioritising the needs of transwomen.

I wholly accept that there is hatred involved on both sides but I think we can all agree that it is restricted to a very small but sadly vocal minority and the rest of us simply want to live our lives with freedom from harm and discrimination instead of being forced into pointless arguments about who is the most oppressed.

I think it's entirely ok for each side to set out their non negotiable parameters such as biological women saying that women only spaces are a no go for transwomen and for transwomen to say that male only spaces are a no go for them and instead of fighting to keep each other out, we should be working towards finding a solution that lets everyone in.

I'd like to hear transwomen who are not transactivists saying what they think they need and what compromises they feel could be made or not made and seeing if there genuinely is a goal that we could support them in achieving. If wanting to have that discussion is perceived as hatred and transphobia, the extremists have won and the rest of us lose.

How do we reconcile providing support for transwomen to live their lives as or to be able to pass as women without many biological women feeling that this is a deception being forced upon them which leaves them vulnerable ? Gay rights were about being able to live openly and freely whereas trans rights seem, to me, to be about only being able to live freely if they don't have to live openly as trans. I can't help but think that if we were to remove the social stigma of being transgender then there would be no need for transwomen to deny their status or existence and we could all move forward more openly and freely.

snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com
mindergenfield.tumblr.com

A couple of gender critical trans women write about their views on the matter

It seems transgender people don't actually fit into either male or female category. Especially if some have not actually changed their sex, but still count as transgender, which I hadn't realised was the case. The thought that (as per the explanation from pp above) someone that looks like a man with a beard etc, and is a man, but thinks he should be a woman, would expect others to just say ok you're a woman then, because that's what you think, is outlandish to say the least. Just thinking if one was in a women's health club or something.

So, does it legally come down to what sex a person actually is, biologically, as to whether they go to say a men's or women's prison? If so, then does that mean that transgender people who haven't had a change are officially men, and the one who have changed sex now are officially women?

Unfortunately there are men in women's prisons based solely on their self professed gender identity e.g. Paris Green.

'The trans threads haven't been transphobic or demonising, but I noticed that some trans folk have been offended by posts from feminists on aspects which affect women:'

I'm not transgender and I am offended by the posts. I have to hide the threads, and Feminism boards, because I've found like it's trying to engage a stuck record. Revolting way to see other people.

This, absolutely. There are a handful of feminists on here who give every appearance of absolutely hating and despising transgender people, and take absolutely every opportunity to present them in a bad light, while faux-innocently claiming that this isn't bigotry, it's just somehow presenting the facts.

Calisto, your post gets close to exactly the kind of bigotry I was referring to. You're essentially saying being transgender is a form of mental illness, therefore someone who feels they are transgender needs to be 'treated' for it (so they come to recognise the error of their ways, or what?). Being transgender is NOT a delusion, NOT a mental illness like schizophrenia - I see that as being on a par with you claiming that someone who is gay, lesbian or bisexual has a mental illness because that's 'just how they feel'. Another favourite strategy is simply to claim transgenderism doesn't and can't exist because gender is a construct. Well, you know, I couldn't give a shit about your ideology, if it's an ideology that makes individuals unhappy about themselves to the point of suicide. If someone can feel at peace with themselves by dressing in traditional female clothing, calling themselves Caitlin, and having a bit of surgery, I just wish them good luck with it and admire their bravery.

And the bizarre obsession with changing rooms as safe spaces? really? It's been many a year since I encountered a female or male changing room - all the shops I know of just have a line of cubicles everyone is free to use, whatever their genitalia. And there are a number of swimming pools that have similar systems. What this is all about is purposefully excluding transgender women from society as a whole - they don't feel like men and aren't accepted as men, and you refuse to accept them as women. I cannot identify with your intolerence and you are doing enormous damage to the feminist movement by clinging to it so desperately. All you've proven is that you can be as poisonous and divisive as men given the chance. Nothing to be proud about.

Seriously, the feminist virulence and obsession with transgenderism is on a par with Ian Paisley's hatred of Catholics or St. Paul's thing about women or fundamentalist Christians ranting about gays being the source of all evil. You've blown it out of all proportion - perhaps as a focus for hatred, transgender women are really the new men.

Am - don't even know what say

I'll ask a question again that I asked upthread and didn't get a reply to. If we are all such hateful, transphobic bigots then why were we so nice to Miranda Yardley (a transwomen) when she came onto one of the trans threads in chat the other day?

buttocks there has been that exact issue re changing rooms - in washington state I think.

These are th facts as I recall them

A transwoman called Coleen Francis used the showers and changing rooms at the same time every week as a teenage girls swim team were also using them. Coleen is male bodied and male in appearance, including male pattern baldness. The girls and their families objected to this person using the women's facilities, but Coleen was entitled to do so because despite all appearances, Coleen "identifies as a woman". The girls were forced to crowd into thr disabled changing area to avoid sharing space with Coleen.

What this is all about is purposefully excluding transgender women from society as a whole

I have to disagree with that. For me, it's about finding a way that transwomen can be included in society and accepted for what they are whilst also finding a way that women can be safe. Both are equally valid aims that are currently in conflict given existing legislation.

It matters to me that intimate medical examinations are done to me by someone of the same sex.
It matters to me that the women in the domestic violence unit I work with feel safe and to them, that means providing a refuge where they will only come into contact with other biological women.

It matters to me that we are able to identify issues that affect biological women and that we can name those issues and set aside funding for them.
It matters to me that women and transwomen are harmed by male violence but given that I believe violence by men against women stems from sexism and that violence by men against transwomen stems from homophobia, it's important that we distinguish the causes and attack them at the very root. We can't do that if we pretend it's the same thing.

It's easier for society to pretend that transwomen can be assimilated into existing attitudes and social structures, partly because it means we don't have to go beyond a token attempt at inclusiveness and understanding and partly because we're only asking women to give up their freedoms and protections, than it is to look at the real issue as to why we discriminate and why we have such an issue with otherness and minority needs. It's much simpler for a male dominated world to shrug off the real issues of male violence and power and to simply throw both transwomen and biological women under the bus rather then look to the fundamental inequalities that have given rise to the harm done to both groups.

Really good post Blistory. I too would like to see a way forwards out of this

archfarchnad that's really not what Callisto said and it's not fair to characterise it like that. There's enough hyperbole in this whole poisonous situation without willingly adding to it.

given that I believe violence by men against women stems from sexism and that violence by men against transwomen stems from homophobia, it's important that we distinguish the causes and attack them at the very root. We can't do that if we pretend it's the same thing

Very, very good point.

That Coleen story has just made me realise there's no way I can enter into any kind of serious discussion about this. I'm afraid it just made me burst out laughing because it is just so ludicrous that anyone could think they'd get away with that, and that presumably to some degree 'Coleen' did.

Thanks for the explanations, though.

Fantastic it's not ludicrous for the girls having to crowd into the little changing room so that Francis can swing free in the main changing room. Also Francis was not happy with that outcome as it meant Francis wants to be able to access all the women's spaces and the law there agrees.

"exactly the kind of bigotry I was referring to. You're essentially saying being transgender is a form of mental illness"

This is interesting. Are you calling WHO bigots?

International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems 10th Revision (ICD-10)-2015 - WHO Version 2015

V Mental and behavioural disorders (F00-F99)
...... Disorders of adult personality and behaviour (F60-F69)
.............. F64 Gender identity disorders
.................. F64.0 Transsexualism
.................. F64.1 Dual-role transvestism
.................. F64.2 Gender identity disorder of childhood

It's much simpler for a male dominated world to shrug off the real issues of male violence and power

Exactly. We, as a society, shy away from this analysis time and time again and it pisses me right off, whether in relation to trans issues or others. (your posts are always fab, Blistory, btw)

OP, no, I don't think there should be a separate topic. This is not a specialist issue for a female dominated forum. The trans activists are shutting down debate across the Internet and having a real effect that has (or will have) a real impact on you or women around you. The fight for women's liberation from male domination is not over and it is vital that it is not undermined and obscured by those who want personal validation of non-maleness. It's not about them, it's about us. They didn't even ask ...

The trans threads are utterly grim. Gleeful hatred in the name of self-righteousness.

I hope MN aren't going to be supporting Pride this year.

"So, does it legally come down to what sex a person actually is, biologically, as to whether they go to say a men's or women's prison? If so, then does that mean that transgender people who haven't had a change are officially men, and the one who have changed sex now are officially women?"

Unfortunately not. Current UK legislation says that the sex change operation is not necessary to change gender and that this is possible at any point of the transition, including very beginning when they are entirely make in appearance. All that's needed at present if for a man to say he thinks he is a woman and presto! he is a woman.

And it's apparently transphobic to say "Get out of the female changing room because you are a big hairy man with a penis & balls".

entirely make male in appearance

The WHO had homosexuality down as a disorder until 1990. It takes a while for bureaucracies to shift.

Maybe if I address my question to a specific poster I'll get an answer.

IPityThePontipines - If we are all such hateful, transphobic bigots then why were we so nice to Miranda Yardley (a transwomen) when she came onto one of the trans threads in chat the other day?

OP thank you, yes often in the wider feminist debate families of trans men AND women get shouted down, but as you can see from this thread it would be difficult to stop the hijacking that inevitably happens.

OP, no, I don't think there should be a separate topic. This is not a specialist issue for a female dominated forum. The trans activists are shutting down debate across the Internet and having a real effect that has (or will have) a real impact on you or women around you. The fight for women's liberation from male domination is not over and it is vital that it is not undermined and obscured by those who want personal validation of non-maleness. It's not about them, it's about us. They didn't even ask ...

Thank you for putting into words what I am struggling to express.

I do get the discussion over feminist concerns, but it would be nice to have a thread that talked about the way having a trans family member is affecting that families life, the on going practical issues and progress, without it turning into a heated debate.

Having these threads on main topics like teens or chat means it gives posters with no trans experience/ knowledge a chance to ask questions & come to a better understanding of the situation,thereby helping promote more tolerance.

When you are in the middle of it all you see a thread with "trans" in the title and open it out of curiosity, and at the moment all I see is a very one sided debate with an astonishingly bad understanding of trans issues.
It is worrying that there may be trans kids out there (& adults!) who come to MN hoping its a safe place to get information and support and are put off by the hatred and bias they see here !