Scottish Referendum debate - watch with Mumsnet

[KatieMumsnet]

So tonight sees the first TV debate of the Scottish Referendum with First Minister and key advocate of the pro- yes campaign, Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling, leader of the pro-UK Better Together campaign coming together for a head to head debate for the first time.

You can watch live from 8pm on STV and if you're south of the border can tune in via the STV player.

Fancy watching along with us? What are you hoping to see from tonight's debate? What are your thoughts on the campaigns so far?

If you've decided which way to vote, why? And if not, what will help you decide?

Do feel free to share these, and any more thoughts you have

The Times magazine no less:

time.com/3110714/scotland-independence-referendum/

• Time

I saw that, but am not sure how representative it is of the referendum as a whole? It was my impression that artsy/creative people were more likely to be yes?

It's overwhelmingly 'Yes' among people in the arts as far as I can see. Unconvinced they're representative of the entire nation though.

I think it's nice to keep Gaelic going, but it's certainly not anywhere near as important as paying pensions (which was what that comment was in response to, the daft audience member who asked why we were worrying about pensions rather than Gaelic!)

I think there is a bit of an industry split, artsy/wannabe artsy folk do seem to subscribe to the "fairer, more creative" country vision more than those in other industries (I'm talking at a high level, there will always be exceptions of course!)

I agree, Gaelic is a tricky one. It is nowhere nearly as widely used as Welsh, but somehow it seems very wrong to let a language die out. I suspect things like roadsigns are just as much to do with tourism as preserving the language.

I don't think rebranding government departments is to do with tourism though. And encouraging the language is one thing, but spending large amounts of money on Gaelic schools in areas that are not traditional Gaelic areas when other schools are struggling for space and resources doesn't seem the best use of public money to me. As far as I'm aware, it was never the language of the whole country but that's not the impression given.

I imagine both sides cringed at the pensions/Gaelic comment at the debate.

I actually think a lot more should be done for languages like Polish - our school had a Polish learning assistant for a while until the council cut the budget. We have a growing Polish population in the area.

There is a requirement for councils in EU countries to provide native language classes to children of EU citizens OOAOML. In the multilingual forum on a German parenting website they talk about that quite often. I have never bothered with it because I feel it is my responsibility to teach my children my language and not that of an already cash-strapped council which is strugging to keep the smaller schools open and to provide for children with special needs but it is something the Polish community in your area could look into. Especially if there are many Polish children it would be more cost effective than for my two.

That's interesting thanks.

The languages collected by the ICHEL include Gaelic. This is not really referendum-related, but Gaelic is interesting because it is so old. The study of dead languages is historically important, not only with Gaelic, but often to allow us to understand documents/writings of historical importance.

To be fair I'm a linguist, so I think the decline of language learning in the UK is sad, and find all languages fascinating, so would deem any of them worthy to be taught/kept 'alive' (so to speak).

I imagine both sides cringed at the pensions/Gaelic comment at the debate.

Yep!

I'm fairly pro-Gaelic, I grew up in a traditionally Gaelic speaking part of Scotland (though it isn't anymore sadly) and it was on offer as a language choice at school.

Gaelic instead of pensions made me go, WTF? As well, lol.

It was my impression that artsy/creative people were more likely to be yes?

I'm not sure. I think certain professions can show a leaning to a certain side, although I don't trust any of the polls out there. I think the main job categories of Yes voters I know would be computer science, science (biomedical, physics, chemistry, etc.), linguistics and general office workers. But that's just me.

Not my experience as a scientist Numenoid. We don't really like to cut ourselves off from possible funding sources and even if iScotland ends up in the EU eventually the transition period would be long enough to end, or at least stall, a whole bunch of careers. I can see good scientists leaving if they don't know where their funding comes from for a few years.

As a language choice at school -fine. I am very unconvinced about having entire schools dedicated to gaelic though. Edinburgh now has a specific gaelic language school after the original gaelic language unit was full. But then I know of a fair few folk who at least considered the gaelic option because the secondary school unit is in one of the best high schools in Edinburgh where getting an out of catchment place is virtually impossible...

Does an entire Gaelic school cost more than a standard school? I always assumed it was just like a normal school, but taught in Gaelic?

I don't know for sure but I'd imagine resources etc will be scarcer and possibly more expensive. But tbh I don't believe in segregation in state schools whether that's due to language, religion or anything else. Just my opinion though as I know that many people don't agree

The Gaelic primary in question is another wonderful example of the SG bailing out the incompetent council here. The building was one of the school closures in recent years (now being followed by building over school playgrounds to provide classrooms). The council claimed they would sell it for at least a million. It sat empty. It was vandalised and lead stolen from the roof. Lots of damage followed, and wasn't properly repaired. Amazingly, nobody bought it, and over a million has been spent refurbing. It then had to be fitted out with lots of new equipment (our school struggles to get new chairs and desks).

My understanding is that the cost per pupil is broadly the same, although I know they were struggling to get staff for it so not sure what the spend on recruitment and training was (the idea is meant to be total immersion, so all teaching and all support staff fluent in Gaelic). And it runs at a much lower capacity percentage than other schools. Other schools in the area are stuffed to capacity, we have new classrooms but no additional funding for IT. We don't have enough space for gym, lunches etc. the council have no plans to address this.

Interestingly, and this is completely outwith referendum chat, the Gaelic school introduced a uniform option of a kilt that cost £40. Nice inclusive school uniform policy there. It is optional, not sure now many have gone for it. Or how many 5 year olds are bundled into one that have to last them for most of their time in the school!

I have no problem with Gaelic teaching. I'm not convinced a dedicated school in an area which isn't traditionally Gaelic is the best use of funding, but my view of the incompetence of Edinburgh Council (and the SG's failure to do anything to stop them - rather to just keep forking the cash over) does impact my thinking there.

Signs for stations with made up Gaelic names (because there was no Gaelic name historically, because it wasn't a Gaelic area) I'm not so keen on. And there should be more acknowledgement that Gaelic is/was not the traditional language of the whole of Scotland.

The Gaelic primary in question is another wonderful example of the SG bailing out the incompetent council here

I've just googled 'costs of Gaelic education' and the Scotsman reports that 'City leaders and the Scottish Government have already ploughed £3.53 million into Edinburgh’s first Gaelic-dedicated primary school, Bun-sgoil Taobh na Pàirce in Bonnington'

3.53 million

The same article says at least £1.1m in 2012-13 was spent on Gaelic education, for 4593 kids according to the Gaelic board (989 children in a Gaelic nursery, 2,500 pupils were enrolled in GME primary education and 1,104 secondary school pupils were studying Gàidhlig for fluent speakers and/or other subjects in high school through the medium of Gaelic)

That's (at least) £2395 a head. I don't know the equivalent figure for English medium education.

It does particularly annoy me that given the shortage of schools in that area they've chosen to use the building for a specialist unit full of out of catchment kids. But then Edinburgh council are absolute idiots

This is really surprising- In 2012/13, the average spend per pupil across Scotland was £5,468. So if the Scotsman's figures are correct, Gaelic education is much cheaper.

Although the Herald says it was 8 million that year, plus a 5.1 million budget for the Gaelic Board.

Urgh, all my calculations are wrong. Ignore me... sorry

I've just googled 'costs of Gaelic education' and the Scotsman reports that 'City leaders and the Scottish Government have already ploughed £3.53 million into Edinburgh’s first Gaelic-dedicated primary school, Bun-sgoil Taobh na Pàirce in Bonnington'

3.53 million

The new Hillhead Primary in Glasgow cost £13.8 million, so that sounds like a bargain
www.ajbuildingslibrary.co.uk/projects/display/id/5014

Fucking hell I mean, it's a lovely school but 13.8 million????!!!!

I know it's not representative of all, Igneococcus. :) Some of the funding for my research and certain studies would/has come from European programs. They have taken a lot of other things into consideration alongside this issue, though.

I had a look at the website, Hillhead primary school teaches Punjabi and Urdu, that's very good! These are two of the languages for which the council and various other organisations desperately need interpreters. I wish I spoke one of them!