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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Disablist language and deletions

182 replies

BOFtastic · 17/03/2014 01:43

Sort of on the back of another thread, I've noticed recent deletions of the word 'moron' as disablist.

I''ve done some googling. It was used among a couple of other older terms, idiot and imbecile, by Henry H. Goddard, a psychologist at the turn of the 19th century to grade people of "low intelligence", and it was taken up to justify eugenics. So distasteful, yes.

Is it just that Goddard actually coined 'moron', and the other terms were pre-existing? Goddard himself disavowed it shortly afterwards, and it hasn't been in use medically for a very long time. I very much doubt that people who use the word are directly referring to learning disability- the word in that sense is long-obsolete. Much like the word 'cretin', which has a similar history.

Language changes, we all know that.

The issue gets more clear-cut, I think, when similarly-originated terms are used as insults separate to their initial meaning. It is NOT ok- regardless of the speaker's meaning and motivation- to, for example, use 'gay' to mean 'pathetic', because it is still primarily used to refer to people's sexual orientation, and making the word an insult is demeaning to them. Also words like 'retard', because alongside its general use, it is still used to abuse and insult people with learning disabilities.

That, in my opinion, should be the rule of thumb: if the initial meaning is long obsolete, fine; if it still gets used in a discriminatory sense about actually-existing groups of marginalised and oppressed people, not fine.

So after thinking about it, I don't think I agree that the word 'moron' should be deleted as disablist language.

So what do people think?

OP posts:
Upandatem · 19/03/2014 21:00

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zzzzz · 19/03/2014 21:01

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BOFtastic · 19/03/2014 21:02

I don't think I understand you fully, rinabean. Can you try and explain it slightly differently?

Do you think it's possible to agree on specific words which are unacceptable and should be deleted on mumsnet?

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AnythingNotEverything · 19/03/2014 21:03

Sorry to dig this up from a post on Monday, but Partial - "cretinism" is not a condition caused by iodine deficiency, or not solely so. It's the old name for a condition called Congenital Hypothyroidism, which is a rare condition affecting around 1 in 4000 babies from birth. Many of these babies turn out to have malfunctioning thyroid glands, or no thyroid tissue at all and require lifelong medication (hormone replacement) to ensure "normal" development. It usually has no known cause.

I particularly dislike the use of the word cretin.

As you were.

limitedperiodonly · 19/03/2014 21:05

Inappropriate seems a good enough word

Was that to me, Upandatem?

If it was, then yes, you're right.

On some occasions it's too prim for me.

PolterGoose · 19/03/2014 21:11

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Upandatem · 19/03/2014 21:11

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Upandatem · 19/03/2014 21:15

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Upandatem · 19/03/2014 21:16

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PolterGoose · 19/03/2014 21:17

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BOFtastic · 19/03/2014 21:19

I keep re-reading rinabean's post, but I still don't think I properly understand the last paragraph.

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Nerfmother · 19/03/2014 21:24

I wonder if rinabean means disable ism rather than ableism? I can understand more if I substitute the word.

LiberalLibertine · 19/03/2014 21:28

limited apologies if I've misunderstood some of your posts, but I thought you said you used it for someone who was being deliberately obtuse and offensive? Then you went on to describe the 'friend' and say she has genuine social problems, so you don't hold it against her (not those words I'm sure, but something like that?)

NurseyWursey · 19/03/2014 21:28

ableism is the term is it not?

BOFtastic · 19/03/2014 21:32

I don't know, tbh, Nursey- I was taking my cue from MNHQ's phrase. The part of rinabean's post I'm not clear on is the last bit.

Rina, are you saying that this whole question of what mumsnet deletes/doesn't delete is irrelevant, and it's about attitude rather than language? I'm just not sure what you mean, sorry.

OP posts:
limitedperiodonly · 19/03/2014 21:33

I would Upandatem given the circumstances, which I've explained.

hazeyjane · 19/03/2014 21:36

Aren't 'ableism' and 'disablism' interchangeable?

BOFtastic · 19/03/2014 21:39

It looks like it, yes. That's not what is flummoxing me though. Anyhoo. I'm flagging a bit now, but it would be good to hear back from MNHQ and anyone else who wants to chip in.

OP posts:
NurseyWursey · 19/03/2014 21:39

I get what she's saying.. I think!

BOFtastic · 19/03/2014 21:40

I'm probably just knackered, Nursey!

OP posts:
zzzzz · 19/03/2014 21:42

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Upandatem · 19/03/2014 21:45

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limitedperiodonly · 19/03/2014 21:57

Did I call the woman who giggled at news of my mother's death my friend?

I don't think I did. I think I called her a person that I knew.

In any case, I don't blame her for her strange reaction to my news. She's odd. and somewhat socially inadequate.

Would anyone like to argue against that? Or possibly someone might like to argue that my nodding and smiling at her when MY MOTHER HAD JUST FUCKING DIED was anything other than unbelievably reasonable and restrained.

Much like the other person who told me about his ski-ing holiday and then asked me how my Christmas was and when I said: 'Not great. My mum died' said: 'Oh, yeah, I know. Your husband told me.'

WTF? I'm sure he didn't mean to hurt me but that's what I call a social cripple too. He just thought asking about your Christmas was the socially acceptable thing to do.

Shall we just stop making excuses and say that for whatever reasons, some people are fucking useless and hurtful and need to be called on it and if I use hurtful terms that's because I'm hurting too and some people should think about it?

limitedperiodonly · 19/03/2014 22:01

you're ignoring that

No. That is the last thing I would ever do.

TillyTellTale · 19/03/2014 22:49

Okay, time for me to chime in on 'moron' and 'cretin'. I personally find them inextricably linked to disability, because when I looked them up in the early nineties (as was my wont with new words), they were explicitly defined as someone with an IQ between 50 and 70 and someone with thyroid issues. And that dictionary was printed in 1989, I'm fairly sure. I think it's this one. I believe I found one of the words in a 1970s book on education.

Today, I use this Collins 2005 dictionary. And that defines each word similarly.

The offensive sense isn't obsolete yet.

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