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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
TheFabulousFuckingIdiotFucker · 24/10/2013 22:34

I can't funkin spell

reelingintheyears · 24/10/2013 22:34

A licence to kill is volunteer mods.

WorraLiberty · 24/10/2013 22:34

As with our other innovations, this may work brilliantly or it may not work at all. We're going to suck it and see because we don't like to see our overnight MNers having to suck up mountains of spam/horrible abusive posts overnight. But if it turns out to really not work, we'll scrap it and try something else.

But surely MNHQ can afford to pay people to mod during the night?

You know, people who are unconnected to the site and would therefore remain totally neutral?

I'm not saying the volunteers chosen wouldn't be neutral btw, but you can bet there will be some accusations of cliques etc.

usualsuspect · 24/10/2013 22:34

Who are the new mods then?

And how did you pick them?

BeyondAnyFuckingJoke · 24/10/2013 22:34

I'd like to volunteer for volunteer mod moderator Grin

AmberLeaf · 24/10/2013 22:35

Yes, I am hmm-ing at the idea of MNers being volunteer mods. If that is the case then hmm indeed.

MarmaladeBatkins · 24/10/2013 22:35

Look, how many years has AF been on MN?! Let's say 8 years.

If you divide the number of reports by years she has been here, the percentage is small. You forget warnings that you had 12 months ago (voice of experience) Plus, just because she has had 100+ reports levelled at her, doesn't mean that all of them resulted in deletion. That is misleading, for one thing. People report for the most weak of things. People get deleted for the most weak of things! It's all a bit weird anyway, using that as a stick to beat her with.

bsc · 24/10/2013 22:35

Power does not always go to people's heads- there are HQ-type folk that were once pretty prolific posters, I don't they've been accused of being non-even-handed Hmm

Some MNers do actually manage to stay fairly detached, and level-headed most of the time.

NotYoMomma · 24/10/2013 22:35

they will obviously be experienced and reasonable posters people

they arent handing MN to trolls Confused Hmm Hmm

wtf do you want them to do at shirt notice?

drama drama drama

ExitPursuedByABogieMan · 24/10/2013 22:36

Come on mods. Out yourselves. We need to know when we have spies in our midst.

RosaParksIsBack · 24/10/2013 22:36

MNHQ - Why volunteer mods as opposed to paid ones?

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2013 22:36

Thanks Justine. I can't be bothered to read the whingefest thread but I think you've gone above and beyond in the explanations. I would have told people to fuck off

ha ha ha at the idea of every Justine repsonse being "Fuck off" Grin

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 22:36

@TheFabulousFuckingIdiotFucker

Who will moderate the vollunteer mods?

We're going to be keeping a close eye on what they do.

They will have no access at all to other posters' data (including namechange details and things like that).

They will have two buttons - 'delete' and 'ban'. And strict instructions to use them only for very obvious spam and really vile abusive posts (rape jokes and things like that - which sadly we do sometimes get a bit of overnight.)

We'll review what they do, and if we think someone is over-stepping the mark (although obviously we have no reason at all to think our generous volunteers would do that) we'll take action.

MmeLindor · 24/10/2013 22:36

72000 posts over a long period of time. And a post can be

'I agree'

or 'Yes'.

AF is quite pithy.

I don't think it is fair to make comments about how many posts she has made, or insinuate that she neglects her family.

Not counting my posts. No. No.

BeyondAnyFuckingJoke · 24/10/2013 22:37

72000 posts over 8 years is 25 posts a day...

WorraLiberty · 24/10/2013 22:38

I'm not sure why we've been invade by little yellow faces for asking questions about the volunteer mods and why they're not being paid?

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 24/10/2013 22:38

Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there.

I don't know much about this issue or about AnyFucker but as a regular lurker and occasional poster in Relationships I cannot emphasise enough how much I disagree

The Relationships thread has helped so many people who are at their lowest in life, it has clarified issues for so many and mobilised many vulnerable women to take action to help themselves and their children. I've never been an OP there, but the advice, reading and stories there have clarified things and helped me personally.

There is no orthodoxy on Relationships - many people post there and many disagreements and debates are had there. This would not be the case in an 'orthodoxy'

MarmaladeBatkins · 24/10/2013 22:38

Totally agree, Lindor.

NotYoMomma · 24/10/2013 22:38

usual ffs hq have said they will try it out, the volunteers wont have full powers and if it doesn't work they will scrap it

why the demanding dramatics?

MmeLindor · 24/10/2013 22:38

Worra
A lot of MNHQlers started as posters on the site, I think. I don't think it is a leap to have some volunteer mods and they will all be scared of Rebecca and Rowan anyway

OneStepCloser · 24/10/2013 22:39

But where did the volunteers come from? Was it advetised, or did you approach certain posters? Confused

bsc · 24/10/2013 22:39

25 posts a day not actually that many

Yakky · 24/10/2013 22:39

I don't see anything wrong with volunteers as moderators.
I mean it works for the Samaritans, doesn't it?

Buildingamystery · 24/10/2013 22:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

TheFabulousFuckingIdiotFucker · 24/10/2013 22:39

Ah, so the volunteer mods aren't a response to the whole AF issue.

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