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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
OneStepCloser · 24/10/2013 22:39

oh no ive made a yellow face, im nosy Smile

kiriwAnyFuckerwa · 24/10/2013 22:40

One post by AF is worth 10 by most posters IMO. A board of drivel is a board no one is interested in.

I'm waiting for the hun overlord

usualsuspect · 24/10/2013 22:40

Notyomomma, please tell me they haven't picked you to be a mod.

bsc · 24/10/2013 22:40

No- has been mooted many times before FFIF

ExitPursuedByABogieMan · 24/10/2013 22:40

So these overnight mods? Are they I'm foreign parts?

NaturalBaby · 24/10/2013 22:40

I'm assuming MNHQ have read this little gem from youretoastmildred on another thread, and added it to the moderator's job descriptions:
"moderate with extreme subtlety and nuance by people who know what they fuck they are doing, with very sophisticated political and gender-relations nous."

ExitPursuedByABogieMan · 24/10/2013 22:41

I'm? In. Ffs

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 24/10/2013 22:41

As with our other innovations, this may work brilliantly or it may not work at all

I will be very interested to see what measures will be put in place which would make it work rather than be the comete disaster I've witnessed before

Also, unfortunately, it would seem that the recruitment and appointment process has been rather, er, opaque. Which kind of undermines the transparency ethos point which Justinead earlier

NotYoMomma · 24/10/2013 22:41

cos no one ever volunteered to help a forum or website or project or anything they loved to be part of and wanted to help out?

people volunteer online a lot, be it admins on fb pages ect etc

all this faux outrage is quite odd

lougle · 24/10/2013 22:41

The statistics can't be used as an absolute. You can't possibly know from what Justine has posted, whether the deletions represent 185 deletions in 2 weeks, with an unchequered past, or 185 deletions spread over her whole posting time,etc.

The fact remains that if MNHQ asked AF to refrain from breaking the rules, she continued to break the rules and she acknowledges that she saw it coming - fair play.

I got deleted once and I felt it was quite unjust. I felt the other poster had been goady and pushed me to that point. I had a very civil discussion with MNHQ about it and my bottom line was 'well if it were Lougle Towers, I'd have done it differently, but it's MN Towers, so all I can do is stamp my feet and yell that it's not fair.'

MNHQ didn't do this. AF didn't even do this. What did this was a one week suspension with plenty of prior warning being whipped up into an outright ban with no warning.

reelingintheyears · 24/10/2013 22:41

This thread should be closed down now.

Justine has said her bit, AF isn't here to defend herself.

It's all a lot icky.

NoFucker · 24/10/2013 22:42

Well I don't nominate me! The joy of getting moaned at whilst failing in trying to sugarcoat the phrase "oh do fuck off". I'd be cheap on many levels....

usualsuspect · 24/10/2013 22:42

I'm just interested as to how they chose the mods.

I never saw a thread about it.

Is that ok Notyomomma?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/10/2013 22:42

Yup. Perhaps if the poster who had been in contact with AF and kicked the whole thing off last night had chosen to start her thread AF suspended for 7 days, rather than AF banned this whole debacle could have been avoided.

imofftolisdoonvarna · 24/10/2013 22:43

Haha! People were screaming last night 'explain yourselves mnhq, we need to know EXACTLY why AF was banned'.

So mnhq do that and explain EXACTLY why she was banned, complete with stats, and now people are moaning that they just didn't need to know that sort of information. What a load of shit.

TheFabulousFuckingIdiotFucker · 24/10/2013 22:43

Sounds like the volunteer mods won't even be allowed to ban the goady fuckers.

BeyondAnyFuckingJoke · 24/10/2013 22:43

Trying to work out how often a post would have been deleted, but its too late and my brain is disagreeing with the concept!

NotYoMomma · 24/10/2013 22:44

im not a mod no, because I am bnot an appropriate candidate lol.

I am to opinionated and argumentative

but why not give them a chance before crying failure or conspiracy?

SnakeyMcBadass · 24/10/2013 22:44

I won't volunteer to be a mod. For one, I like to be in bed by 11, and for another, the power would go to my head and I'd end up invading Scotland or something. Best not.

Theworldisending · 24/10/2013 22:45

'she has to fight this way.. She's the bouncer at the gate, the bodyguard, the bull terrier that sees past the manipulative wordy goaders and bullies, whether in real life or on here.'

And she will have her vengeance in this website or the next.

BOF · 24/10/2013 22:45

Can we stop making unfair/unfounded/subjective comments about somebody not here to defend herself, please? It's fair enough to say how helpful she has been, as few could argue and it's not an unpleasant thing to hear about yourself, but it's more than a bit out of order to aim criticism and derogatory remarks at a person who has no right of reply at the moment.

Not in the spirit of the site and all that.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 22:45

@TondelayoSchwarzkopf

Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there.

I don't know much about this issue or about AnyFucker but as a regular lurker and occasional poster in Relationships I cannot emphasise enough how much I disagree

The Relationships thread has helped so many people who are at their lowest in life, it has clarified issues for so many and mobilised many vulnerable women to take action to help themselves and their children. I've never been an OP there, but the advice, reading and stories there have clarified things and helped me personally.

There is no orthodoxy on Relationships - many people post there and many disagreements and debates are had there. This would not be the case in an 'orthodoxy'

We know that the Relationships board is hugely valued in what it does, and we don't doubt that it helps lots of people - we know that it does.

But we also get many reports and off-board messages saying that people feel they can't post in there because they will be shouted down for not following what they think is the party line.

This isn't only a problem in Relationships - we've had problems like this on other boards before, and no doubt we'll have problems like this on other boards in the future. But from what we've seen, some posters definitely think that there is a problem. And we're not talkig about people who are reporting to cause trouble; we're talking about 'genuine' MNers who feel reluctant to post.

imofftolisdoonvarna · 24/10/2013 22:45

One post by AF is worth 10 by most posters IMO. A board of drivel is a board no one is interested in.

Hmm
Mintyy · 24/10/2013 22:45

"But where did the volunteers come from? Was it advetised, or did you approach certain posters? confused "

Agreed. All ears.

AmberLeaf · 24/10/2013 22:45

Notyomomma I think lots of people here have experience of forums where posters get mod status and have seen what can happen. Maybe you haven't seen that?

I have and it isn't pretty.

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