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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
OneStepCloser · 24/10/2013 22:20

I also want to give public kudos to Rebecca who held her own, with her usual grace and aplomb, dealing with all of this. I would have lost my shit more than once last night

Agree with Tee, really felt for Rebacca last night, I hope shes been looked after today Smile

SoupDragon · 24/10/2013 22:20

What like 0.26% Soupdragon?

No, far far smaller. Far fewer than 185 deletions and probably far greater than 72000 posts in all.

Thisfuckerisaeuphemism · 24/10/2013 22:20

The only time I get reported is when I report myself.

Report me, you bastards.

JaquelineHyde · 24/10/2013 22:20

Can I just say this thread has made me break open my free chocolate Baileys miniture I was sent.

Fucking disgusting!

That is all.

Sparklysilversequins · 24/10/2013 22:20

I think it's really crap to have given out all those details. Do you think she will come back now? Would you?

You've made her sound like an absolute twat, just to cover your own arses imo MN.

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 24/10/2013 22:21

I think the transparency was required but MN were damnedif they did and damned if they didn't

At the end of the day, tis just an internet forum and posters who fundamentally disagree with how it is run can always find somewhere else to their liking - I must admit a morbid fascination at just how wound up things got

I see there will be some volunteer mods - whom I presume will be posters. Again, watching with interest. I used to post on ivillage years ago. They had volunteer mods or "community leaders". Oh dear. Car crash springs to mind. It made last night look positively restrained when it used to kick off

MNHQ - I would seriously consider employing
or engaging mods on the usual basis. Why do you need "volunteers"?

ZombieZing · 24/10/2013 22:21

I just want to know who wins "most posted about" AF or Penis Beaker?

yes, that feels like a long time ago now, doesn't it.

BeyondAnyFuckingJoke · 24/10/2013 22:21

Another one intrigued to know my "score" Grin

Just want to add though, that i have had non-ltb advice on relationships too, it does exist!

givemeaboost · 24/10/2013 22:22

lol I don't have any idea how many posts ive done over the years but ive never been reported or deleted/suspended! Everyone should try and toe the line for the greater good of the whole site, those that don't should be warned, those that CHOOSE to ignore the warning should then face the consequences. favouritism/popularity should not come into it. As others have said, if anyone's responsible for airing her laundry its the posters who started up all the silly threads last night, bringing her name to attention of people who'd never even heard of her before.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 22:22

@PacificFucker

Thanks, Justine, for your OP. I am glad that AF can/will be back after a short period of time.

2 points:

Somebody with strong opinions on a subject more likely to be emotive such as for instance, oh say, 'Relationships' is more likely to generate polarisation. So people posting a long, say, in the gardening section, even if prolific posters are far less likely to be controverstial. I think (disclaimer: I know little about gardening Wink).

Actually you would be amazed (genuinely) by the things people get passionate about on here.

We completely agree that some threads and topics are more polarising than others - and we do try to take into account the amount of 'heat' being generated when we look at a thread or post.

But in the end, whatever the context, if people break Talk Guidelines and are reported, then we need to take action.

It's worth saying that there are some posters who have posted many tens of thousands of times, and who plainly hold very strong opinions on many things, but who manage to stick within Guidelines. We don't, tbh, agree that strong opinions need go hand-in-hand with personal attacks (or other Guideline-breaking posts).

JugglingFromHereToThere · 24/10/2013 22:22

All seems reasonable enough - but a bit slow, 24 hours after the main event?

Were you just waiting for us all to let off steam and calm down, or up all night writing AF's report, and composing the perfect well balanced, calm response? Smile

Do sometimes wonder if there's anyone there reading the threads as they're written, or whether you're all up in MN towers drinking that legendary gin as we are Grin Wine

usualsuspect · 24/10/2013 22:22

I think after this AF will be reported a whole lot more by posters who don't like her.

TheFabulousFuckingIdiotFucker · 24/10/2013 22:22

Fuck me i HATE that 'it's only the Internet' line trotted out by people on the internet who feel like it's ok for them to get worked up about people who are worked up and recommend that they 'go upside for a walk because it's nice out there' even though they are sat k. Their arses n their iPad on the sofa loving every second of the drama.

Sigh.

Mintyy · 24/10/2013 22:22

I'm a big AnyFucker fan but I do think she is over-involved in Mumsnet. She is famous for her presence on Relationships. Is that always a good thing? She is just a common or garden casual poster like the rest of us. She has a job and family. Its not like she is using up all those thousands of posts to casually shoot the breeze about nonsense stuff that doesn't matter. She and I have had exchanges before about getting too embroiled in the sadness that is the mn relationships board.

I say all of this with utmost fondness for her, the old trout.

ExitPursuedByABogieMan · 24/10/2013 22:22

Interested to know who the volunteer mods are.

garlicfucker · 24/10/2013 22:23

FWIW, Justine et al, I agree that auto-bans cause more trouble than they save. I also agree, though, that patterns of aggravating posting tend to go unnoticed. Along with some others on these threads, I will start reporting posters for this reason, regardless of specific post content. It'll then be up to you how, or whether, you follow it up.

With that in mind, I second/third the suggestion of a 'report poster' option on the report form.

Peace & love & all that :)

SPsTombRaidingWithCliff · 24/10/2013 22:23

This is why I stick to Cliff pics and _chat with the odd stroll through AIBU

OneStepCloser · 24/10/2013 22:25

but I dont like the sound of volunteer mods, power goes to peoples heads.

WorraLiberty · 24/10/2013 22:25

I think after this AF will be reported a whole lot more by posters who don't like her.

I agree

But to be fair if she isn't breaking the talk guidelines, it doesn't matter how many times she gets reported.

Sparklingbrook · 24/10/2013 22:25

For people like me who have the Relationships topic hidden it was all very confusing.

IamInvisisble · 24/10/2013 22:26

I don't like the sound of volunteer mods either onestep.

NoelHeadbandz · 24/10/2013 22:27

Well yes I wasn't going to say anything but....yes, I AM one of the new volunteer mods

Open to bribes people, open to bribes

mrsWast · 24/10/2013 22:27

thefabulousfuckingidiotfucker - if that was directed at me i hope i can put your mind at rest and reassure you that i am not worked up at all. again - a little perspective all round wouldn't go amiss.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 22:27

@garlicfucker

FWIW, Justine et al, I agree that auto-bans cause more trouble than they save. I also agree, though, that patterns of aggravating posting tend to go unnoticed. Along with some others on these threads, I will start reporting posters for this reason, regardless of specific post content. It'll then be up to you how, or whether, you follow it up.

With that in mind, I second/third the suggestion of a 'report poster' option on the report form.

We'll think about the 'report poster' option - but loads of people do exactly that already, just by reporting a post but using the comment box to say 'er actually you need to have a look into this one, it's all a bit goady/inconsistent/rude' or whatever.

We spend lots of time looking into posters' entire or recent histories.

MarmaladeBatkins · 24/10/2013 22:27

Oh lawks.

Honestly, I don't think that poor old AF can come back from this. Maybe if she'd been suspended and it had all gone off quietly, she could have come back next week like nowt had ever happened (as often DOES happen with suspended posters)

But with the million threads which contain some vile personal attacks on AF and this disclosing of AF's disciplinaries with MNHQ, I don't think she'll want to come back. For one, any time she posts in her inimitable style she'll be shouted down by her adversaries, using her 'reported' history as ammunition.

I'm not slating Justine for disclosing the information, I can see that she was backed into a corner and needed to illustrate a few points. I'm just saying that this whole thing spiralled way out of control and out of the well-meaningfulness of lots of us posting in support, we may have made it harder for AF to return.

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