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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
MmeLindor · 25/10/2013 15:28

Milly
I agree with that sentiment, but the live-and-let-live approach isn't working. I don't think threads should be more policed, but I do think that a bit more kindness would go a long way.

Actually, I just want people to be naice. Call me Pollyanna.

It isn't shutting down debate, if you report to MNHQ and ask them to have a look at the posters posting style.

TiggyD · 25/10/2013 15:32

To get the highest score in darts with just 3 throws, use hedgehogs.

neiljames77 · 25/10/2013 15:45

I've only had a few visits to this site but I've got the impression that it's really lenient.

SatinSandals · 25/10/2013 15:50

It is neiljames77, they don't want censorship but sometimes it needs it.

CarpeVinum · 25/10/2013 16:02

And hopefully we, as a community, can find a way of dealing with this kind of provocation better.

The choice is pretty simple.

Keep light handed moderation and accept "safe space" isn't a reasonable expectation under that style of management. But choose the "freer speech than most forums" advantage over the "unlikely to be found spitting blue lights at the screen cos somebody is being a right git, but is just stopping short of breaking regs, the cunning bastard!" disadvantage

OR

Lobby for heavier moderation, choosing "safer space" over "freer speech than most forums" ... and live with much chuntering about "I remember when we were treated like grown ups and didn't get deleted/suspended/banned for anything that wan't a zillion percent supportive of all and any opinion/choice a poster chooses to make public" and "how very very dare you sanction X for reg breaking! Don't you know who she is!?!? I didn't mean apply this shit to me and the people I like when I said add more anti GoadyFucker regs and moderation!!"

The only bit any individual has any control over in terms of improving the degree to which the disadvantage of light modding gets to add a not so nice taste to threads is self moderation. Don't give yourself "special dispensation" to be git in writing for X,Y, Y "oh well it's different for me, cos I am JUSTIFIED!" reason. Don't rise to bait. Starve people you suspect of being attention seekers/berks of a response and report when applicable. Accept that every advantage comes with a downside, pick your poison according to your stronger preferences and live with it while trying to do your bit to minimise (rather than the undoable "damn near eliminate") the possibility of some fucker taking advantage of light modding to be a nasty piece of work.

ColderThanAWitchsTitty · 25/10/2013 16:06

I am sure this points been made somewhere (have not RTFT)

But you would expect a poster who has made thousands of posts to have had loads more instances of being reported etc than say a goady fucker newbie and I hope that counts too. Percentages and all.

What percentage of Any fuckers actual posts have been reported?

Leavenheath · 25/10/2013 16:07

Right, this is probably going to be a controversial post, but I feel very strongly about it.

I believe that detailing AF's posting history is a wholly disproportionate response and just wrong.

No-one asked you to do that specific thing and you had a range of other more proportionate choices in order to defend MNHQ against criticism and provide explanation. The fact that you've done that, while mentioning in the same post that you've had concerns about the 'orthodoxy' on the Relationships board leads to more suspicion, not less. Because it now looks probable to me that two entirely separate issues have been linked by MNHQ; an allegedly prevailing orthodoxy and a poster who allegedly upholds that orthodoxy.

MNHQ had the choice to start a thread in Site stuff, reiterate the basic facts about warnings leading to bannings, pointing out that this was only ever a suspension and not a ban, apologise for the slowness in MNHQ response to the mounting speculation, accept the apologies of those who fuelled it and have been gracious enough to say sorry- and job done. This would IMO have preserved the dignity of all involved in the saga. Of course there was also an option to do nothing at all and wait for the fuss to die down, which can be an equally valid and helpful course of action.

Then MNHQ might have started a separate thread or threads to discuss issues raised. The issues about moderation; the concerns (which from Rowan's posts appear to pre-date this week's events) that people are allegedly reporting to you about a prevailing orthodoxy on a particular board. That might have been better to do in a few days or weeks time though, when responses and suggestions might have been more measured.

Having been on the thread that led to AF's suspension, I've been wondering whether I should have reported posts which seemed to be more about attacking and taking the piss out of other posters and the OP. Now that Rowan has said that in her opinion, talk guidelines were only breached after posters starting railing against the piss-taking, I've therefore had it confirmed that had I reported my concerns, MNHQ would have disagreed with me. IMO that would have been an error of judgement on MNHQ's part, but so be it. So the piss-taking would have carried on unabated despite my report, which it did resulting in the OP returning to her thread and writing a now deleted post that she was so upset by this behaviour, she was unable to post again for advice.

If MNHQ want AF to return to this site, posting her history like this is unlikely to achieve that. If you don't and are linking her personally to a separate concern about the tone of a board on which she's a frequent poster and think that her deregistering (and possibly others doing so in disgust) will produce the sort of Relationships board you want, then this is an effective (if non-transparent) way to go about it.

MmeLindor · 25/10/2013 16:13

Yes, I agree with that Carpe.

Leaven
Last night, I thought that posting AF's stats was ok, but I do agree that in combination with the stance taken today on the 'orthodoxy', the impression is given that AF and others are too aggressive on Relationships.

I don't agree with this assessment. Like many other posters, I have been given excellent advice, and was never told to LTB when I posted on Relationships.

It seem to me that the person most hurt by all of this is AF, who must be feeling really awful right now. It is all a right kick in the teeth.

JohnnyUtah · 25/10/2013 16:14

Haven't RTFT, it's too bloody long.

There is a prevailing view of LTB on the relationships board, far too many keyboard warriors for my liking. iRL it is accepted that separating is a drastic step that needs serious consideration, but on here it seems people are never happier than with the drama of a live split - almost as good as a live birth thread it seems. It's nasty.

MilllyMollyMully · 25/10/2013 16:16

In terms of "I just want people to be naice" - the best way to ensure that is to stick to the Talk Guidelines which we all signed up to as users.

I'm really quite confident that MNHQ put some thought into them.

passedgo · 25/10/2013 16:16

Leavenheath's post is the reason I say don't explain, don't discuss, get on and do what you have to do. It's your site, not ours.

reelingintheyears · 25/10/2013 16:18

^ Yes, I totally agree.

reelingintheyears · 25/10/2013 16:19

That was to Leavenheath.

passedgo · 25/10/2013 16:19

I must say I have never really read the talk guidelines. I've been deleted a couple of times, in 8 years or so. I think worrying about rules will just cramp my style and I will become a boringly nice person that just wants to agree with everyone. Sorry but I can't do that.

TunipTheUnconquerable · 25/10/2013 16:20

I am totally confused by Mumsnet now. I have no idea where MNHQ are coming from these days.

I like to believe well of MNHQ but posting AF's stats like that looks more like a way to passively aggressively make sure she doesn't come back than anything else.

SinisterSal · 25/10/2013 16:20

there would be no need for special sitewide Anti Goady Fuckers initiatives if we all had our own HidePoster button.

Leavenheath · 25/10/2013 16:21

Mme Lindor, Justine mentioned the concerns about the Relationships board in the same opening post as the stats about AF. Rowan's posts later confirm that these concerns had been expressed prior to this blowing up.

She said about the Relationships board: we can only reiterate that we get regular reports and messages (I got a few last night while posting on this thread) from people who say they feel unable to post there.

MilllyMollyMully · 25/10/2013 16:23

Passedgo, it has been suggested on other threads that Talk Guidelines should be posted in full on threads where they are being repeatedly broken.

From your post, it sounds like a really good idea.

Talk Guidelines are often linked to, as in "Please read our Talk Guidelines here" but clearly a lot of people never read them.

reelingintheyears · 25/10/2013 16:24

No one, not even the nastiest trolls have ever had their posting history exposed like that and AF has always supported MNHQ and put her hands up if she's in the wrong.

Disappointing performance all round really.

usualsuspect · 25/10/2013 16:33

It does feel like MNHQ Have hung AF out to dry.

MmeLindor · 25/10/2013 16:33

Leaven
So she did. I didn't notice that last night.

reelingintheyears · 25/10/2013 16:34

All those threads should have been closed down immediately just as others are with the deletion message that the poster isn't here to defend herself.

Total double standards.

Loopytiles · 25/10/2013 16:35

Yes, why the need to publish AF's full posting stats and mention "concerns" about the "orthodoxy" of the relationships board?

What is MNHQ doing to prevent people with malevolent or misogynist motives from targeting individual posters, or the relationships and feminism sections?

meekenough · 25/10/2013 16:35

MNHQ can't win can they?

I think its good its a suspension rather than forever ban. She has her good points, but needs to learn boundaries, and yes I totally second It was quite often people she just disagreed with not trolls, BUT she is not the only one tbh.
She will be back soon and the clique mentality hopefully will be altered which can only be a good thing.

WeleaseWodger · 25/10/2013 16:36

I lost the will to live after reading countless posts with personal attacks against this CFD poster.

Since when is calling any poster a FUCKER not a personal attack? And on a thread that a moderator is actively reading -- no excuse.

And all these bleating posts about how one poster isn't here to defend herself while spewing personal attacks on another poster is shameful.

Intelligent women my ass.

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