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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 11:33

We can have google plus style reviews, with a summary after each user name.

Quint [non-goady fucker] or
Quint [Goady fucker beware] or
Quint [Teachers Pet]
Quint [Dumb as hell]

etc

valiumredhead · 25/10/2013 11:33

Please please please please please invent a bit of software that would analyse all that so we could access it on "My Mumsnet"

There is something that shows you often you have posted, it's been posted on MN in thread before, I don't know what it's called though…

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 11:33

that should also have said

'its ok, I was just shocked'

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 11:33

That was tongue in cheek. Btw.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:34

@DixonBainbridge

LtAllHallowsEve

Exactly as you say. An ability to report you suspect they're deliberately doing it would be useful. Not sure if MNHQ has the "spare" resources to police it though....

You can do this already - honestly. Loads of people do. Just use the comments box in the 'report post' dialogue box to say whatever it is you want to say to us - 'please look at all her posts on this thread', 'pleass could you have a general look into this poster', 'I saw her behaving weirdly on another thread yesterday as well'... etc etc

valiumredhead · 25/10/2013 11:35

valiumredhead [bit bolshy but harmless]

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld · 25/10/2013 11:35

Following on from Basils post, could you clarify if it could ever be considered a personal attack to say:

"George, that post is blatantly racist/homophobic/disablist"

Or even

"Bill, your post above is reinforcing a negative stereotype of single mums, and I disagree wholeheartedly"

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 11:35

I would be:

NotYoMomma[bewearyofdodgyautocorrect]

or

NotYoMomma[opinionatedmare]

Wink
ClayDavis · 25/10/2013 11:35

You do have the ability to do that though. There's a text box when you report to put in other information. All you need to do is report 1 post and point out the past posting history if it's a problem. MNHQ will then look at it and delete all their posts is appropriate.

Perhaps the problem is that they don't always agree with what you are telling them but I don't see what they can do about that.

Lazyjaney · 25/10/2013 11:35

"If someone is goading, the posters around them have choices: report the post; post a reasoned counter argument, or type a PA"

Exactly - and bear in mind one person's "goady" is often just disagreement with anothers' point of view.

The example re those who disagree with the "LTB" mantra on the Relationships board being called goady is a good example.

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 11:36

I have actually just clocked on to the fact that RowanMumsnet just said that a post in Relationships does not have to be supportive, as long as it follows the guidelines. Oh well.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 11:37

beyond

I would have thought those are fine (maybe hq could clarify)
because it is about the post and what has been written

ie (that is a disablist statement)
rathet than (you are a diablist twonk)

iyswim?

motherinferior · 25/10/2013 11:39

It's entirely logical that a post in Relationships shouldn't have to be supportive. If a poster says "I only hit her once, she doesn't love me any more" I don't think they merit support.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:42

@BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld

Following on from Basils post, could you clarify if it could ever be considered a personal attack to say:

"George, that post is blatantly racist/homophobic/disablist"

Or even

"Bill, your post above is reinforcing a negative stereotype of single mums, and I disagree wholeheartedly"

Both of these things are unequivocally fine

ButThereAgain · 25/10/2013 11:42

If we do want to come down on "goading", then there is an awful lot of "goading" that isn't labelled as such simply because it is done by someone who is on the same side as us, and the victim of it isn't, or isn't known to be, on that side. I used to post with a relatively well-known name and I felt I could speak freely because the people around me knew that I was a feminist, socially progressive, etc etc. Now that I post as an unknown person I find that I often feel the need to speak in a rather defensive way, kind of stating my credentials (e.g. pro-feminist credentials) as a prelude to saying something that I feel people might disagree with, because otherwise I feel that I am risking responses that are deliberately wrongfooting, hostile, intended to trip me up and make my contributions seem unwelcome, just because I am not known to be a poster that is on-side.

I don't think this kind of antagonistic stance towards a poster is really a subject for moderation certainly not at the low levels at which I have experienced it but I do think that if "goading" is to be regarded as something routinely moderated then many many posters who do not see themselves as goading, because they are goading in a good cause, ought to think very hard about the way they post.

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 11:43

MI - Do they merit a Fuck Off to the far side of fuck, perhaps?

Oh no, that is against the guidelines.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:44

@BasilFucker

As part of "what next" MNHQ, could you have a look at what actually constitutes a personal attack?

I'm still not actually sure. "You are a cunt" is fairly straightforward and easy. "You're wearing your cunt hat today" is indirect and oblique, but it's still a personal insult, though perhaps not a personal attack.

I've got myself into a muddle with thinking what is a personal attack and if it's the same as a personal insult and if indirectly insulting someone should be allowed or looked at askance.

Also whether sometimes, personal attacks are "fair comment". "You are a cunt" clearly isn't, but "You are a racist/ homophobe/ man-hater/ misogynist" may be felt as a PA by the person who is on the receiving end of it but may also be a sincerely held view and therefore count as fair comment.

Any thoughts on that Rowan? Could that be thrown into the mix when MNHQ are looking at all this stuff?

Very happy to talk about this on the webchat next week.

But of your examples:

You're a cunt - deleted so long as not obviously a joke
You're wearing your cunt hat - again, probably deleted unless we can see it's a joke
You are a racist/homophobe etc - deletable
Your post is racist/homophobic - fine

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 11:45

Rowan

can I say "you are being a cunt" when someone is being a cunt?

ThreeTomatoes · 25/10/2013 11:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:46

@ZombieZing

Rowan

can I say "you are being a cunt" when someone is being a cunt?

Nope

ButThereAgain · 25/10/2013 11:46

But if they were a cunt how would they type? That would take a helluva lot of pelvic floor exercise.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 11:47

probably not

your 'being a cunt'
might be their 'i dont agree at all and hadn't thought about it like that'

iyswim?

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 11:48

ButThereAgain

Grin
ThreeTomatoes · 25/10/2013 11:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PervCat · 25/10/2013 11:48

I never got banned

I am sure wi deserved it most of the time.
I had a bloody whole TOPIC once yearns for the old days

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