Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
OhAntiChristFENTON · 25/10/2013 10:59

for you snowmummy Flowers

KoPo · 25/10/2013 11:01

Might I suggest that this thread is now closed and a separate thread about the goading issue is opened.

This is now going round and round in ever decreasing circles.

snowmummy · 25/10/2013 11:01

More sarcasm? Just to be clear, that's a genuine question.

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 11:03

Fenton ffs! my eyes, MY EYES!Grin

MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 11:04

Fucks sake, Boffy.

I know it's been a fraught couple of days but was there realky any need for that?! Hmm

OhAntiChristFENTON · 25/10/2013 11:04

Sorry Zing I'm not a bit sorry

Grin
DixonBainbridge · 25/10/2013 11:06

NotYoMomma

Apologies, didn't mean to offend, just quoted an example (by another poster) that sprung to mind. As it was on the, very public, "Chat" board in the first place, didn't attach any specific relevance to it.

But the post, taken in context, was one of several by that poster that were deliberate, wide eyed, passive aggressive "non-contributary" posts designed to "wind up" the other posters.

It's this sort of posting that goads others & they then snap back & get their replies deleted. There are loads of good examples on that thread TBH. (I won't reference the thread, poster or quotes so hopefully this post won't be deleted!!)

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 11:08

Fenton

I can't stop laughing. thank you! I love you!

but I kind of wish I could unsee that. gotta watch Nightmare on Elm Street and Texas Chainsaw Massacre simultaneously so I won't have Hoff related nightmares!Grin Grin Grin

valiumredhead · 25/10/2013 11:09

Oh God, this thread is hideous, emails and members' posting stats etc? Shock Sad

72,00 is sweet fuck all, I bet I do more than that in a day sometimes!

EachAndEveryHighway · 25/10/2013 11:10

A small point about nit-picking on the relationships board. I find it hugely mean if an OP refers to her 'DP', then when it becomes apparent that they don't live together (even if they've been in a relationship for a significant period), many posters chip in and say he's not your 'DP' he's just your boyfriend. That kind of posting does no favour to the OP who has come to the board for support and advice.

Sparklysilversequins · 25/10/2013 11:10

Janey that thread was an OP being nice to single parents even though some didn't take it that way saying how she didn't know how we did it and good on us.

It wasn't just an opinion from Cabernet because it wasn't that kind of thread. It was a couple of really nasty lines about "single mums who breed irresponsibly with idiot men and only have themselves to blame". Totally irrelevant to what the thread was actually about.

Hahaveryfunny · 25/10/2013 11:13

Personally I don't see how any poster or post can be considered to be 'goady without realising it' - a motion raised by a couple of posts here. Goading surely has to be, by definition, done intentionally. It's like lying - you can't accidentally lie, that would be saying what you mistakenly believed to be true. So what's happening in these instances is surely that a post is interpreted by the recipient / another reader as 'goady'. Since this could then be endlessly subjective, there is surely no option other than to accept MNHQ 's judgement on them .

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:14

@Sparklysilversequins

Janey that thread was an OP being nice to single parents even though some didn't take it that way saying how she didn't know how we did it and good on us.

It wasn't just an opinion from Cabernet because it wasn't that kind of thread. It was a couple of really nasty lines about "single mums who breed irresponsibly with idiot men and only have themselves to blame". Totally irrelevant to what the thread was actually about.

Just to be accurate, the line was 'Too many people also breed irresponsibly, with idiot men who have no intention of sticking around...'

ie not actually naming single mums.

But as we said, we've deleted it anyway

passedgo · 25/10/2013 11:14

It's a bit like parents asking their children how they want to be parented.

The forum becomes an expression of the way it is moderated. If you have simple rules you will be tied down by them, in the same way that censorship law can't afford to be vague.

I think mn knows what they want, a generally fair, supportive and open place and that is generally what they have. But it's so much bigger now and you probably need to be quicker off the mark and generally stronger. More mods and more decisiveness. You don't need to explain yorselves to us, you will know when something is up when your long term posters leave.

And you can't be all things to all people. There is a point where you have to upset some to support others. Don't explain just do it and people will know whether they want to continue.

DameDeepRedBetty · 25/10/2013 11:18

FWIW I've got Relationships Hidden most of the time, partially because I find it an upsetting place, partially because sometimes there does seem to be a pack mentality in some of the regular posters.

On the other hand, I've also advised many OPs in Chat and AIBU to repost in Relationships, as that pack may be a bit ravenous, but they're also very good at advising women in deep abusive shit on how to get out.

What I do find sad is that once or twice I've found a thread in Chat or AIBU started by a man who is going through bad times with his family relationships, and felt unable to advise him to go to Relationships, as I am worried that some of the regulars there will rip him to shreds on the principle that anyone possessing a penis must be an abuser.

ThreeTomatoes · 25/10/2013 11:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BasilFucker · 25/10/2013 11:21

As part of "what next" MNHQ, could you have a look at what actually constitutes a personal attack?

I'm still not actually sure. "You are a cunt" is fairly straightforward and easy. "You're wearing your cunt hat today" is indirect and oblique, but it's still a personal insult, though perhaps not a personal attack.

I've got myself into a muddle with thinking what is a personal attack and if it's the same as a personal insult and if indirectly insulting someone should be allowed or looked at askance.

Also whether sometimes, personal attacks are "fair comment". "You are a cunt" clearly isn't, but "You are a racist/ homophobe/ man-hater/ misogynist" may be felt as a PA by the person who is on the receiving end of it but may also be a sincerely held view and therefore count as fair comment.

Any thoughts on that Rowan? Could that be thrown into the mix when MNHQ are looking at all this stuff?

LtAllHallowsEve · 25/10/2013 11:22

Dixon, I feel exactly how you felt about that thread/post/poster and see that person doing the same thing a number of times.

It's a perfect example of the kind of thing MNers have to put up with - on its own and read innocently, it doesn't look like a goad, but actually it is. It's that kind of post that I think would be worthy of a 'Report Poster' can you have a look at this person please? report.

lougle · 25/10/2013 11:25

I'm getting uncomfortable with the idea that someone being goady justifies PA or leads to it. Isn't it victim blaming? The same as we don't accept people saying that a woman who yells and screams at her dh 'had it coming', etc.

If someone is goading, the posters around them have choices: report the post; post a reasoned counter argument, or type a PA.

If you know that a PA will get you delete, suspended or banned, that's the choice you take.

BettyBotter · 25/10/2013 11:27

Aside: my only ever deletion was for telling someone she was as nutty as a fruitcake . I was told off for the PA and post deleted. Fair enough, it was not exactly a thought- through critique of the OP's POV. Just saying, cos HQ do apparently try to apply the rule consistently and AF has got off pretty lightly .

BasilFucker · 25/10/2013 11:28

Oh and oh my, I would so love to see stats.

Please please please please please invent a bit of software that would analyse all that so we could access it on "My Mumsnet"

Grin
DixonBainbridge · 25/10/2013 11:30

LtAllHallowsEve

Exactly as you say. An ability to report you suspect they're deliberately doing it would be useful. Not sure if MNHQ has the "spare" resources to police it though....

bodycolder · 25/10/2013 11:30

We should all have a little star next to our name with the stats on our misdemeanours over the years in numerical form. And those who have never put a foot wrong should have theirs glittery and flashing

MooncupGoddess · 25/10/2013 11:31

"If someone is goading, the posters around them have choices: report the post; post a reasoned counter argument, or type a PA."

Or just ignore the goading post! Much the best option in the vasy majority of cases.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 11:32

Dixon

you just dont expect to see very personal incidents that you have put with careful consideration on a relevant thread dredged up on a completely unrelated thread about totally unrelated posters, I was pretty shocked and dismayed honestly

nearly gave me a panic attack Confused

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.