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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
PervCat · 25/10/2013 11:49

rowan- do you remember by OWN topic?

ah halcyon days

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 11:50

thanks Rowan
thought as much, sorry. shame though. Sad

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 11:50

three tomatoes

Blush I may have said something like that myself a couple of times
QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 11:51

SO, in short, you can be a cunt on a thread, but it is not possible to call somebody on it by calling them a cunt.

Too much mind gymnastics in this.

Brodicea · 25/10/2013 11:53

Off the topic of cunts and at the risk of attracting more hysteria:

Why oh why can't people understand that while someone might be a really nice and supportive person, they are also capable of being offensive? People are multifaceted, and if AF had been warned this many times for offending people then it is only fair for her to be TEMPORARILY punished.

It would be totally unfair if certain people were protected from the rules just because they were often nice. Say, a nice teacher who did a lot of good in life, started shouting abuse at someone in a public place - they would be kicked out for the night, this is the same thing.

PervCat · 25/10/2013 11:54

detects strong whiff of overthinking on this thread

TrinityFucker · 25/10/2013 11:55

I love mnhq, I think they do a sterling job under very hard circumstances sometimes

Grin

Its a shame that we all went a bit batshit crazy and forced hq to have to air AFs laundry

tbh I feel bad that now everyone knows how many times she has posted, reported and deleted

do me too so she doesn't have to stand alone in the nude as it were

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:55

@PervCat

rowan- do you remember by OWN topic?

ah halcyon days

I don't think I do, may have been before I signed up

You old gimmer

PervCat · 25/10/2013 11:56

lol it was excellent.

OhAntiChristFENTON · 25/10/2013 11:56

Completely off topic but, I know I 'know' you PervCat, who the blue blazers were you before??

PervCat · 25/10/2013 11:57

oh i think being reported is a BADGE OF HONOUR

oh yes

otherwise you are just talking about your kids and being fecking dull

thinks back to that "Guess what?" thread the other day when the answer was "an old bottle of Jif"

HepsibubbleCauldronToad · 25/10/2013 11:57

This is horrible.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 11:58

thats just it though quint:

they might not be being a cunt on the thread, they might have a perfectly valid but differing opinion on a subject that you find to be cuntish.

if so then tell them you disagree and why.

it isnt massivley hard to avoid just calling people names.

and mnhq have confirmed it wasnt just GFs and trolls who were affected by this, but sometimes
genuine but newish OPs

OhAntiChristFENTON · 25/10/2013 11:58

Oh that's a good idea Trinity do me too.

I wouldn't want to leave anyone standing in the roody noodies.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 11:58

@QuintsHollow

SO, in short, you can be a cunt on a thread, but it is not possible to call somebody on it by calling them a cunt.

Too much mind gymnastics in this.

I don't think we ever said it was OK to be a cunt on a thread? But then we think our Talk Guidelines do cover most forms of cuntish behaviour, one way or another.

Low-level goading is one where - as I outlined in my post below about benefits - it's almost impossibly difficult for us to make a sensible judgement unless someone has an established posting history (for good or bad).

PervCat · 25/10/2013 11:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TrinityFucker · 25/10/2013 11:59

rowan said cuntish

curlew · 25/10/2013 11:59

Does a person who has been complained about have a right to know what the complaints were?

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 12:00

Do you want me rootling through your posting histories or do you want me deleting personal attacks from Thursday morning, hmmmmm?

TrinityFucker · 25/10/2013 12:00

thanks fenton Smile

Lazyjaney · 25/10/2013 12:00

"Why oh why can't people understand that while someone might be a really nice and supportive person, they are also capable of being offensive? People are multifaceted, and if AF had been warned this many times for offending people then it is only fair for her to be TEMPORARILY punished"

And/Or can be very supportive to people who agree with their views, and very offensive to people you don't.

MilllyMollyMully · 25/10/2013 12:00

Some fantastic explanations from you on here, RowanMumsnet. Immensely reassuring.

I think the day "goading" was added to Talk Guidelines was the day MNHQ dug a deep pit for itself. Because it's all too often interpreted by bullies to mean "not agreeing with me and my mates".

TrinityFucker · 25/10/2013 12:00

ooooh touchy Rowan Grin

PervCat · 25/10/2013 12:00

GET OVER BEING REPORTED

Justine reported my thread the other day as she thought i was a troll.
only poor people watch daytime tv

PervCat · 25/10/2013 12:01

if you haven't been reported you need to try harder tbh

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