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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 10:40

do we not have more faith in HQ than to react if someone reports someone over a smiley face? come on

ButThereAgain · 25/10/2013 10:40

Thanks for your reply, Marmalade. I agree that it is all very difficult, because conversation is deeply nuanced, and because personalities and styles differ. That's part of the reason why I think it is really absurd to expect moderation to deal with a wide range of possibly unconstructive postings (labelled as "goading"), rather than sticking more-or-less solidly to a "no personal attacks" rule. And it's why I think it is dangerous for posters to imagine that they are entitled to attack posters they label "goading". Conversation isn't that highly susceptible of regulation, except possibly on a very small and homogenous site, certainly it isn't on a mass site like the one MN has become.

Rather than getting hung up on problematising and suppressing a wide range of contributions, it is better to simply continue the conversation, ignoring posts that we find unhelpful and responding without personal attacks just when we think a response contributes to furthering the conversation (rather than responding in order to punish a poster for saying what we deem it unacceptable to say).

On support threads, that avoids the shameful spectacle of a poster derailing the thread by insisting on responding to an alleged goader -- which to me seems like putting one's own righteous indignation ahead of the support needs of the OP. And on discussion threads it means we can all have a much more fruitful exchange of ideas.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:41

@Sparklysilversequins

It was reported by a few posters but it is still there.

The poster has not been back and I and another were deleted rapidly. Almost makes you wonder if someone was posting nasty shit to get a rise then reporting gleefully once they did doesn't it? Oh wait.........

I didn't even CALL them a GF. I said that it could be a good example of being one.

It's gone (and was not deleted by me - it had gone when I opened the thread to look).

We still have a big backlog of reports in our system, and things aren't always going to be dealt with as promptly as we'd like. We're sorry about this.

mrsWast · 25/10/2013 10:42

Hmmat the wild paranoia about this being a deliberate attack by mra's in an attempt to subvert womens' place in society and hold them under the cosh of the patriarchy.

it's mumsnet. not tiananmen square.

Sparklysilversequins · 25/10/2013 10:43

It's gone now. Thanks Rowan.

HardFacedCareeristBitchNigel · 25/10/2013 10:44

But you're on the thread SnowMummy. The so very unimportant thread !

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 10:44

notyo

thanks, maybe I did miss the point and for that I'm sorry.

this is so much more civilised, isn't it?Smile

now I know you didn't mean it as a PA. I'm happy.

but I have to go coz I have a nosebleed.

ThreeTomatoes · 25/10/2013 10:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

passedgo · 25/10/2013 10:47

I agree with threetomatoes, this is about keeping on top of the forum, having the resources to moderate well.

Quint would you really want that job or were you just trying to undermine my comment, or maybe it was a misplaced joke? Hmm

Anyway, Rowan needs either a payrise or an assistant.

snowmummy · 25/10/2013 10:47

You can hardly miss the threads hardfaced, that's part of my point.

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 10:48

notyo FWIW I didn't report you - no need now.

and I think we cracked it. maybe that's how real or perceived PAs should be dealt with.
I offer you a highfive

BOF · 25/10/2013 10:49

Sweet Jesus, I'm losing the will to live.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 10:50

im pregnant and knackered and hormonal and have confused myself as to what just happened lies down

Bonsoir · 25/10/2013 10:50

Any of us could work out the number of posts and deletions of any poster on MN should we have nothing better to do. The only statistic we cannot work out is how many reports a poster has had.

I think MNHQ is quite right to remind posters that this is a public forum that they do not own.

OhAntiChristFENTON · 25/10/2013 10:52

there is now only one thread to post on snowmummy so you can easily hide it if you don't want to be on it

oh wait..

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 10:52

passedgo - I x posted with you, my post was in response to MarmaladeBatkins below.

It was not meant to undermine at all.

Lazyjaney · 25/10/2013 10:53

"Someone on another thread has just said that single parents breed irresponsibly with unsuitable men. I indicated that saying that made them a GF. I was deleted. Their lovely post has been left to stand"

Actually this is a good example.

It is just an opinion, and one could muster arguments for and against it. I suspect most would argue against it, I would, but I can see the underlying point the poster is trying to make.

But some people will not like it at all, and instead of arguing the point will rush to call it "being goady" and attack the poster. And get deleted.

And IMO they should be. Attack the point, not the poster.

OhAntiChristFENTON · 25/10/2013 10:54

I have found somewhere that supplies grips in bulk, -bargain

bodycolder · 25/10/2013 10:56

BOF Grin

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:56

OK. Well if there's nothing else that's urgent, i can go and get on with helping to clear the rather extremely massive posts backlog?

But we'd really appreciate your input on the goading issue that I outlined below. How would you have us deal with those sorts of reports? We'd honestly be interested to know.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 10:57

make sure you grab the gin and/ or a cuppa Rowan x

snowmummy · 25/10/2013 10:57

I don't want to hide the thread thanks. I want to express my surprise that this has caused so much debate. Going by your sarcasm, you clearly have a problem with that.

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 10:57

Janey, had you seen the post in its entirety and within context you would probably have recognised it as the definition of goading.

Sparkly has under-reported it here. It sounds like it was just a statement of opinion but it was AWFUL in the way it was put, and clearly, clearly designed to upset as many people as possible.

The 'fuck off' was completely warranted in this instance - Sparkly didn't say that in her post, but someone else did and I stand by them.

elskovs · 25/10/2013 10:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ButThereAgain · 25/10/2013 10:59

Good post, Lazyjaney. Why on earth should someone be deleted for saying that single parents breed irresponsibly with unsuitable men? Mumsnet isn't just a place for posting views that are intelligent thoughtful and humane. It is a place for anyone to say what they want within the guidelines, which luckily don't require us to be right all the time.

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