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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
snowmummy · 25/10/2013 10:24

Ffs all this fuss over a forum!

There are real problems in the real world. Get a grip.

OhAntiChristFENTON · 25/10/2013 10:25

I do love a good 'get a grip' post, - you just don't see enough of that, do you? Hmm

ThreeTomatoes · 25/10/2013 10:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wordfactory · 25/10/2013 10:26

Yes snowmummy chop chop, get out there and start solving some of those RL important problems.

SPsTombRaidingWithCliff · 25/10/2013 10:27

Questioning whether OW is the right term is nothing!

How many threads have people picking apart spelling,lack of paragraphs, grammar etc?

A poster for banned for a week and yet most MN act like kids instead of just asking in a grown up manner or waiting for the information to come forward.

Its embarrassing for the whole board tbh. Grown adults trying to start a riot on a forum over one poster when plenty others have been banned before.

MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 10:27

That's exactly what I mean, ButThereAgain. I honestly think that some people don't realise they are being goady because they are naturally combatative people. I was friends with such a person IRL, honestly, you couldn't order a cup of tea in a cafe without her going on the offensive, but when called on it she'd be genuinely shocked at how people saw her...

I do worry about what you have just said, though. Sometimes someone will start a thread on here and you can tell the OP is a bit wet behind the ears but has managed to choose a topic that will provoke a reaction on MN. They will be accused of goading and get a lot of Hmm faces. Not everyone that posts a question/opinion contrary to the MN party line is a goader. Obviously the benefit basher type threads are cunt-worthy and silly but there are others, than as a newcomer to the boards, you might not know were regarded as 'goady'.

I am waffling now.

HardFacedCareeristBitchNigel · 25/10/2013 10:28

*Nooo! Not fair HFCBN.

I am sure I have more than 72,000 posts, and have been deleted exactly twice!

Some people need to nc regularly, and never use it to cause trouble*

So how could my proposal cause you aggravation ? This is the first forum I've ever used (and trust me, I've used plenty) where you can name change at all

trish5000 · 25/10/2013 10:28

LtEve. But what would have happened if you could have ltb, and did? When actually, you were able to work or find a way through it? Maybe with mumsnetters help and support.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:28

@ButThereAgain

Marmelade, you raise the possibility that CFD "doesn't have a clue that she'd goaded AF". Is that meant to imply that someone might be "goading" and not even know it? It's hard to interpret that as meaning anything other than a claim that simply posting something that AF (or anyone else) is likely to disagree strongly with amounts to "goading" regardless of your intention when posting.

The word goading seems to be used to problematise a wider and wider range of posts. Taken as a whole, the popularity of the word as a term of criticism on MN does seem to amount to saying that "if you violate what I take to be an established consensus you are posting unacceptably and either you should be moderated, or I should be forgiven for launching a personal attack on you, or both." That is very disturbing. It completely erodes the conditions for a thoughtful exchange of opinions.

Thanks ButThereAgain - this does clearly outline part of what we think the problem is.

'Goading' is HUGELY subjective. Posting 'you're a twat' is not remotely subjective.

This isn't to say that goading doesn't go on. But it can be exceptionally difficult to tell where 'expressing an unpopular opinion' ends and 'goading' starts.

This is why we tend to take posters' past histories heavily into account when they're reported for this sort of thing. If we can see that they have a history of starting kick-off threads on reliably touchy issues, or if they're reported by a wide variety of posters for being goady, then it can flag that there's an issue.

Mmmango · 25/10/2013 10:29

Fenton is exactly right with the analysis of CFD's posts on that thread - spiteful and condescending.

Sparklysilversequins · 25/10/2013 10:29

Someone on another thread has just said that single parents breed irresponsibly with unsuitable men. I indicated that saying that made them a GF. I was deleted. Their lovely post has been left to stand.

So that's how MN is now peeps. Enjoy!

TheDoctrineOfAnyFucker · 25/10/2013 10:31

ThreeTomatoes, it is utterly unrealistic for MNHQ to monitor every post. I think that only happens in pre-moderated forums, doesn't it?

ThreeTomatoes · 25/10/2013 10:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 10:32

notyo

I have to report that post as I take it as a personal attack on the grounds of being falsely accused that I deliberately missed your point.

(oh yeah, that feels good. now there's no need to swear.)

ThreeTomatoes · 25/10/2013 10:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 10:33

sparkly - did you actually report the post or just call them a goady fucker on the thread?

if the latter then do it properly

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 10:35

go on then, you can. because that is how it has been designed to work.

I will just say you missed the point of my post. not sure if that is much better tbf

LtAllHallowsEve · 25/10/2013 10:35

LtEve. But what would have happened if you could have ltb, and did? When actually, you were able to work or find a way through it? Maybe with mumsnetters help and support

Actually Trish5000, without wanting to 'out' myself too much, because I don't talk about my relationships, I would be better off if I had LTB - and probably still should.

snowmummy · 25/10/2013 10:37

I'm not trying to solve rl important issues neither am I getting het up over a forum. So yes, get a grip.

CrispyHedgehogFucker · 25/10/2013 10:37

Blimey.. I can't see how AF can come back after this, that's assuming she'd even want to after being hung out to dry by having her personal stats revealed, and some of the nasty posts about her that have emerged since people thought she was banned and fair game. Even if she posts a :) someone will report her.

AF can be abrupt and abrasive, but she's also an amazingly supportive asset to MN (and I know she's not the only one) - she didn't deserve this shoddy treatment though.

Sparklysilversequins · 25/10/2013 10:37

It was reported by a few posters but it is still there.

The poster has not been back and I and another were deleted rapidly. Almost makes you wonder if someone was posting nasty shit to get a rise then reporting gleefully once they did doesn't it? Oh wait.........

I didn't even CALL them a GF. I said that it could be a good example of being one.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:38

@MarmaladeBatkins

That's exactly what I mean, ButThereAgain. I honestly think that some people don't realise they are being goady because they are naturally combatative people. I was friends with such a person IRL, honestly, you couldn't order a cup of tea in a cafe without her going on the offensive, but when called on it she'd be genuinely shocked at how people saw her...

I do worry about what you have just said, though. Sometimes someone will start a thread on here and you can tell the OP is a bit wet behind the ears but has managed to choose a topic that will provoke a reaction on MN. They will be accused of goading and get a lot of Hmm faces. Not everyone that posts a question/opinion contrary to the MN party line is a goader. Obviously the benefit basher type threads are cunt-worthy and silly but there are others, than as a newcomer to the boards, you might not know were regarded as 'goady'.

I am waffling now.

The benefits-basher thing is a very good example actually.

If someone relatively new comes along and says 'how come these people can be claiming benefits but still have enormous tellies' - are they necessarily a goader? Or are they someone with what is actually a fairly mainstream viewpoint, using MN to express what they think?

(Not saying we like these sorts of threads, but it is a good example of how this issue can be difficult to judge without mind-reading equipment.)

MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 10:38

Where would one procure these grips that we are often advised to get?

:(

ScreamingNaanAndGoryOn · 25/10/2013 10:39

What CrispyHedgehogFucker said.

With bells on.

BOF · 25/10/2013 10:39

"This is why we tend to take posters' past histories heavily into account when they're reported for this sort of thing. If we can see that they have a history of starting kick-off threads on reliably touchy issues, or if they're reported by a wide variety of posters for being goady, then it can flag that there's an issue."

Unless there is a strong fishy aroma to it all?

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