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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:10

@MarmaladeBatkins

CFD has been all wide-eyed on a lot of the AnyFucker support threads, asking for her support to be passed on.

It's either ungenuine or she honestly doesn't have a clue that she'd goaded AF. Not sure which.

You saw the bit where we said we'd taken action?

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 10:11

marmalade she knew exactly what she was doing.

she started another thread "apolgizing" which far from sincere and was prompt deleted for being deliberately inflammatory.

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 10:12

Rowanmumsnet, that is just the beginning.

Do you think it is particularly supportive?

passedgo · 25/10/2013 10:13

Divide and conquer. We are playing right into their hands here. MRA will love this. I can see the posters of these threads printed out in the walls of their hq.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 10:13

the use of other woman is a bit of a bone of contention across numerous boards here and is often pulled up.

people moaning about their dcs step mum are asked 'was she the OW?'

on step parenting 'i was not the OW'

'she left him but refers to me as OW'

people on relationships are told 'I bet there is an OW' ehen actually, maybe there isnt

its not unreasonable for people to query whether there was an OW when there was (at the time) no evidence to this

  • its like when people (rightly) get pulled up on the use of BM on the step parenting forum or 'skids' when their mothers are still on the scene
ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 10:13

*CFD

although I keep thinking its Cif

saintmerryweather · 25/10/2013 10:13

in the context of the thread it came from CFDs post was a welcome change from the posts that came beforevit and i agreed with her. guess hat makes me a goady fucker too.

i just didnt post my opinion on that thread cos i know what i would have got some everyone else...well, what CFD got really

MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 10:13

Yes I saw where you'd taken action! I wasn't aiming that at MNHQ! I was just responding to a pp that said that maybe CFD had been pleased at the turn of events...

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:14

@QuintsHollow

Rowanmumsnet, that is just the beginning.

Do you think it is particularly supportive?

'Supportive' isn't the measure (although it's obviously desirable). 'Breaking Talk Guidelines' is the measure.

And FWIW there were a few posts on that thread - not by CFD - being unsupportive of the OP for not following Relationships board advice previously, so unsupportiveness - if that's what you think her posts were - was hardly something unique to CFD.

MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 10:14

"Divide and conquer. We are playing right into their hands here. MRA will love this. I can see the posters of these threads printed out in the walls of their hq."

To be fair, there won't be much wall-space in their box room in their mum's bungalow.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:15

@MarmaladeBatkins

Yes I saw where you'd taken action! I wasn't aiming that at MNHQ! I was just responding to a pp that said that maybe CFD had been pleased at the turn of events...

OK thanks Marmalade and sorry

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 10:15

have you really just used a quote from another very sensitive thread about my experiences as a child?! Shock

really?! omg

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 10:16

You asked if it was rude, not whether it was breaking talk guidelines as they are today.

I think you need to address the issue of your guidelines, as I have said below.

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 10:17

notyo

to the OP she was the OW. she said so herself and that should have been enough.

there's no way for us to know as she herself was doubting, so best to take her word for it and validate her feelings. otherwise why bother?

who are you to decide how the OP felt? what's the point of twisting her words? just accept that's her choice of phrase and move on with actually helping!

MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 10:18

Dixon, no-one is 'surprised' that the more, ahem, abrasive posts are deleted when they are. But a lot of posters do have a great skill in belittling and upsetting just by being clever enough to be a big cunto whilst managing to stay under the radar.

No-one expects MNHQ to delve into the history of such posters, there are too many, but if you have good reason to believe that you are being goaded, you should be able to say as much without fear of deletion/suspension.

FrightRider · 25/10/2013 10:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 10:19

marmalade Grin @ the bungalow!

anyway I used about 7 different names in the last two days (not to hide, you can all recognize me)
good luck with spreadsheeting that!Grin Grin Grin

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 10:20

I wasnt even there, I am merely pointing out that there are a lot of sensitive and rsge inducing acronyms and words on here and across other areas that get the same treatment

I did not suggest that the OPs feelings were invalid and ypu are deliberatley missing the point

OnemorevoiceforAF · 25/10/2013 10:20

One outcome of this is going to be a lot more work for HQ, so I hope mn are advertising.

I have always tried to ignore goady types in the hope it will freeze them out. And also because, especially on Relationships, my heart sinks every time some poor sod's thread slides into a bun fight.

In future I will report them, not least to get their strike count up.

Who wouldn't?

MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 10:21

"One outcome of this is going to be a lot more work for HQ, so I hope mn are advertising."

ButThereAgain · 25/10/2013 10:21

Marmelade, you raise the possibility that CFD "doesn't have a clue that she'd goaded AF". Is that meant to imply that someone might be "goading" and not even know it? It's hard to interpret that as meaning anything other than a claim that simply posting something that AF (or anyone else) is likely to disagree strongly with amounts to "goading" regardless of your intention when posting.

The word goading seems to be used to problematise a wider and wider range of posts. Taken as a whole, the popularity of the word as a term of criticism on MN does seem to amount to saying that "if you violate what I take to be an established consensus you are posting unacceptably and either you should be moderated, or I should be forgiven for launching a personal attack on you, or both." That is very disturbing. It completely erodes the conditions for a thoughtful exchange of opinions.

passedgo · 25/10/2013 10:23

The point is Dixon tbat some people are not capable of 'bothering' to disguise their goading. Fuck off you twat isn't goading, it's just swearing.

Yes mn should increase its staff as its members increase. You can't just say 'it's too much to handle now so we are going to make it easy for ourselves and develop a tickbox syste'm.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 10:23

Rowan I have reported Dixon's post below for personal reasons, please can you have a look at it

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 10:24
OhAntiChristFENTON · 25/10/2013 10:24

Right sorry, long x-posted but I was looking at CFD's posts shortly before AF's posting directed at her about her posting - I see now that I wasn't looking at the first but quite a way into the thread for CFD -

---
'However unethical it may be to record the meal I think I would.'

shock

Are you fucking serious??

This thread is surreal.

-----

'This is why I say trust your own instinct.'

Presumably, you also lay bets based on 'hunches'.

Are you rich yet?

------

'You can't articulate what it is, you can't put your finger exactly on the problem, you can't find evidence to back up your suspicions. But you know.'

So a 'suspicion' is the same thing as 'knowing'.

You're not a police officer are you, by any chance?

------

but yes, I can see there were many more before and after, and long before AF 'attacked' her postings.

She was ripping into many posters on that thread, being derogatory about their opinions - but not really doing a lot to help the OP.

That was what - from my interpretation anyway - got AF irritated, that she was filling the thread with her re-quoting and criticisms of everyone else's opinion.

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