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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
usualsuspect · 25/10/2013 09:53

Maybe we could have CFDs stats ,she's had rather a lot of deletions in her short time on MN.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 09:55

it seems he/she has been dealt with too.

has she been banned MN or temp banned? out of curiosity.

the fact is AF didnt need to bite especially when on a warning

TheDoctrineOfAnyFucker · 25/10/2013 09:57

But quints, my understanding is they don't read the thread unless they get many reports about different posts on the same thread.

Maybe a "whole thread a problem or just this post?" Check box would be a good option.

MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 09:57

I agree, Momma.

I've been warned for calling a twat a twat a few times (haven't I, Rowan? Wink) but I'm just not that good at being subtle in my nastiness, like a lot of people manage to be on here. So people can and do say much worse/more hurtful things than "Oi! You're being a dick!" but because it's often not an outright attack, it seems a bit delicate flower-ish to report. Someone was quite vile to me this week but she didn't actually attack me. Someone else must have reported it for me because it went, but I didn't feel able to report it because I wasn't sure what to write in the report box.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 09:57

its like if someone was being sarcastic and a total arsehole to me in the street

so I turn round and punch them in the face

I dont think the court could say 'well you goaded her and were being sarcastic'

so I dont think MN could have realistically not acted here tbh

its only temporary anyway

FairyJen · 25/10/2013 09:58

I quite like idea of a sin bin area. You could list posters who are suspended and how long for which would put an end to all the "where is x threads, has she been banned?"

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 09:58

"the fact is AF didnt need to bite especially when on a warning"

Agreed, but I think this goes beyond individual posters.

Maybe a lot of unpleasantness would be avoided if MNHQ took a look at what lies behind an outburst. Not saying outbursts should be allowed, but that goading should be dealt with better too.

Maybe that is too cumbersome/restrictive/undemocratic to keep on top of though.

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 09:59

Maybe a "whole thread a problem or just this post?" Check box would be a good option.

That is a good idea. MNHQ? Thoughts?

OhAntiChristFENTON · 25/10/2013 09:59

But that's not what happened here: CFD rolled up, gave her opinion - in a way that was completely within Guidelines - and got attacked for it.

But her very first post on that thread, and many that followed, were not in support and help for the OP but to criticise others postings, in flippant, pisstaking and derogatory ways.

and then AF got suspended for criticising CFD's postings

Take a look.

TheGhostofAmandaClarke · 25/10/2013 10:00

Some of this isn't about AF at all.
The situation of her suspension has raised an important bone of contention. IMO some ppl are pissed off that it seems to be ok to say something unpleasant but to say "fuck off" in response to the PA comment is delete able.
I still don't think it's on to reveal information about AF- MNHQ communication in the process of defending MNHQ against accusations of wrong doing. But I'm sure the legal position has been fully considered.

lougle · 25/10/2013 10:02

People need to remember that this site isn't owned by the posters and no-one has a right to post here.

Why MNHQ are going to such lengths to appease people after it was made clear that a poster was given a one week suspension, is beyond me.

If you break the law, it doesn't matter why you did it, you still did it. Why you did it only affects your punishment.

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 10:02

I dont think there is any actual wrong-doing, but as online forums develop and mature it may be necessary to look at changing guidelines and find better ways of doing things?

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 10:03

@OhAntiChristFENTON

But that's not what happened here: CFD rolled up, gave her opinion - in a way that was completely within Guidelines - and got attacked for it.

But her very first post on that thread, and many that followed, were not in support and help for the OP but to criticise others postings, in flippant, pisstaking and derogatory ways.

and then AF got suspended for criticising CFD's postings

Take a look.

OK let's have a look at it (pasted in below).

is this something you regard as 'goady' in the context of the info posted up by the OP at that point?

If it had been posted by someone else, would it have been regarded as goady?

Because in all honesty it looks OK to us - trenchant, but not abusive or rude.


Two things.

  1. She is not, as far as you know, the "OW"

  2. This:

I've snooped a lot and never found anything dodge but all the chat seems a bit flirty to me not because they are explicity flirting but because they so clearly like each other and bounce mails back and forth.

Is just paranoid "logic". Step back and look at what you yourself have said:

You haven't found anything incriminating, but you have found some innocent chat which must be flirty despite the fact that it isn't, because talking to someone indicates you're interested in them sexually.

Have a word with yourself.

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld · 25/10/2013 10:03

Am I the only person who reports the OP if the whole thread needs to go then?

BOF · 25/10/2013 10:03

I really object to the way that any old wanker with a grudge gets to sharpen their knives on this thread, while AF had no right of reply. It's very disappointing.

usualsuspect · 25/10/2013 10:03

Without the posters,there would be no site.

somersethouse · 25/10/2013 10:04

This is getting so boring.
AF is banned for ONE WEEK.
That is all. She is one person on a huge forum. Honestly, this is so pathetic.

Has nobody got anything else to bloody do. MNHQ has been totally, totally reasonable. This is ridiculous.

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 10:05

fenton is it still up? anyone link please?

passedgo · 25/10/2013 10:06

Ok so at last we are getting back to the nitty gritty of what this is about. It's nothing to do with statistics, it's to do with the LTB issue, the shouting down of people who question that and the MRA goaders for whom AF has been a prime target for some time. In fact mn itself has been subjected to their media slanderings for some time. These people are destructive, and like all the best dictators in history, divide and conquer to achieve best results.

Yes it is tricky, and needs constant attention from moderators. If mn is so concerned with posters' welfare then perhaps they simply need to hire some more mods so that 'constructive discussion' is enabled.

LEMisafucker · 25/10/2013 10:06

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MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 10:06

Look, somersethouse, it's not just about AF now. A lot of related gripes have come to the surface and we are allowed to discuss them, if you are agreeable? Hmm

MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 10:08

CFD has been all wide-eyed on a lot of the AnyFucker support threads, asking for her support to be passed on.

It's either ungenuine or she honestly doesn't have a clue that she'd goaded AF. Not sure which.

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 10:08

Fenton and CDF was also criticizing OP too for her choice of "OW" , when it was blatantly clear what OP meant.

how is that helpful? CDF and others should have been reported for that straightaway. if you start nitpicking any OP's words when there could be many reasons why they chose specific phrases or words (one of them being is being in distress and not giving a shit about semantics maybe?) then it is clear that that person is not actually listening to the OP in an understanding and helpful way.

if I was an OP whose words get pulled apart like that in a similar situation, that bit alone would make me go "fuck you then, I came here for help, yet you are criticizing me for my choice of words? really? Angry I'm outta here!"

no wonder that kind of digging ended up in a fight.
poor OP.

Lazyjaney · 25/10/2013 10:08

MN Mob: "show us why"

MNHQ: "Ok, here you are"

MN Mob: "how dare you show us"

DixonBainbridge · 25/10/2013 10:09

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