Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 09:40

She was not attacked by the OP, though.

And she chose to take her venom out on the OP.

IHaveA · 25/10/2013 09:40

MNHQ
We've no objection at all to people who say 'LTB', but we do have a problem if people saying 'I'm not sure you should LTB' are being shouted down

That's exactly the problem as I see it. I often resist posting because I am nervous of the reaction from the hardcore LTB brigade. I don't think my views are any less valid. I also always try to post in a 'passive' style eg You may want to think about doing X or have you considered Y. This is in contrast to the What are you thinking woman! You MUST leave him now style of comments.

Mumsnet has opened my eyes to a lot of things and my views have been changed. To be fair I am far more likely to be in the LTB camp than I was when I was younger. However, I often find the knee jerk LTB reaction of some of the posters to be OTT. I expect that makes me an 'apologist' in some people's eyes Sad Confused

MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 09:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:40

@PatoBanton

Plus they all sound like criticism of the posts - not the poster - as stated in your guidelines this is allowed.

grey area perhaps?

Yes, it can be a grey area. If it seems clear to us that people are coming up with convoluted formations to get around the personal attacks rule, we'll use our judgement.

ApplesinmyPocket · 25/10/2013 09:40

Porto, you were just sticking up for AF and speaking out against what you saw as a travesty of justice, not many will blame you for that. The problem clearly lay in the confusion over it sounding like a permanent ban, when if it had been obvious from the start it was a one-week suspension most of the furore wouldn't have happened.

I don't think MNHQ can be blamed for giving into forceful demands to be transparent, explain themselves, defend their decision against some fairly angry accusations of being unfair, handing out a 'ban' for no good reason, favouring GFs over long-standing posters, selling out the soul of MN, etc. We asked - we demanded! to be told why, and they told us why.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:41

@LEMisafucker

Well I could do with a break

I didn't mean you!

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld · 25/10/2013 09:41

Quint wins the internet for her summing up.

I had not seen that the OPs post had been deleted now too. Which it obv would as it quoted CFDs mocking post in its entirety and "replies may also be deleted". But maybe editing would have been better there than deleting...

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 09:41

'It may well be because they haven't been reported, PatoBanton?'

That would possibly be because they aren't generally considered worthy of reporting?

LEMisafucker · 25/10/2013 09:42

Apart from the support I get on the mental health board. That is my lifeline

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 09:42

"MNHQ were getting slated by the hordes for doing it & their explanations weren't believed."

Well, that goes with the territory whether you are a business owner, a forum owner, or Prime minister/president, when shit hits the fan.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:43

Thanks Marmalade - we've deleted it, plus your re-posting of it

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 09:44

''They called CFD 'passive-aggressive', a 'bossy know-it-all', and talked about her 'officiously self-important posturings''

actually no, I don't think that is a grey area at all.

Passive aggressive is not attacking someone, it's describing what they have posted.

Bossy know it all is an Enid Blyton insult and unworthy of note

Officiously self important posturings is again a criticism of what is written

HOW do you find these constitute personal attacks?

LtAllHallowsEve · 25/10/2013 09:44

If you're the OP and you dont come back with having done what the posters have told you to do you also get ripped to pieces, accused of trolling, hounded and abused if you come back and post about it again "i told you what to do last time" or "we've been telling you what to do for months" or "is this still going on?"

Just tentatively, because I don't post on Relationships in general - When I did, over a period when things were bloody awful for us, and we were on the verge of splitting up, I did get lots of LTB. They were deserved, because the situation was that bad. I posted again, explaining why I actually couldn't LTB, or at least not yet and had a number of supportive posts, understanding and offering me ideas of how to deal with the hand I had been dealt - and some of those were from AF. I also received a number of PMs with offers of practical help, links and the like, all of which helped me to resolve what was going on.

I posted a couple of months later, saying what I had done, and how it was going and again received messages of support.

DH and I did not split up. I have never been ripped to peices, hounded or abused for it. I have even had a PM from someone who worked out who I was usually, PMd me to tell me, and offered support if I needed it later down the line.

Whilst I agree that in some posters view that is what happens on the relationships board, it's not fair to make a blanket statement like that as if it happens to everyone, when that is not the case.

Imdoingthis · 25/10/2013 09:45

If I was AF I would be so angry that all this was being said and my personal account information being given out to all....

And on a suspension of her account so he can not post and respond

This is unfair on AF seems like a personal attack to me, of her and her personal information,

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:46

@PatoBanton

'It may well be because they haven't been reported, PatoBanton?'

That would possibly be because they aren't generally considered worthy of reporting?

Well that's up to individuals of course. We're just saying that it's the explanation for the apparent inconsistency.

Plus, context matters. CFD had not personally attacked anyone on the thread at that point. If she'd been engaging in personal attacks herself, and it was looking like a case of low-level handbags between two posters with them both being as bad as each other, we might have decided to leave it.

But that's not what happened here: CFD rolled up, gave her opinion - in a way that was completely within Guidelines - and got attacked for it.

Imdoingthis · 25/10/2013 09:46
  • she not he
MarmaladeBatkins · 25/10/2013 09:46

Thanks Rowan.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 09:48

if I was AF...

But you aren't, has anyone asked her?

maybe finding out facts/ what AF actually thinks before posting your 'outrage' might have stopped all the drama llamas the other night

Hmm
usualsuspect · 25/10/2013 09:49

CFD has been stirring on MN for weeks.

It's no wonder someone got riled with her.

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 09:50

'But that's not what happened here: CFD rolled up, gave her opinion - in a way that was completely within Guidelines - and got attacked for it.'

Also in a way that was (arguably completely) within guidelines...?

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:50

@Imdoingthis

If I was AF I would be so angry that all this was being said and my personal account information being given out to all....

And on a suspension of her account so he can not post and respond

This is unfair on AF seems like a personal attack to me, of her and her personal information,

We take on board that lots of you are annoyed about this.

Tbh yesterday it really seemed that this was the only way to be completely transparent about what had gone on. Bear in mind that for about 24 hours people had been accusing us of lying, and of being incompetent.

We may decide to edit that info out in some way once the conversation has died down, but while this is still a live issue (and our stats tell us that it is) then we just think we need to be completely clear about what's happened.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:51

@PatoBanton

'But that's not what happened here: CFD rolled up, gave her opinion - in a way that was completely within Guidelines - and got attacked for it.'

Also in a way that was (arguably completely) within guidelines...?

Nope - we don't think it was

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 09:51

"CFD rolled up, gave her opinion - in a way that was completely within Guidelines - and got attacked for it."

You need to change your guidelines to include a notice saying that bullying posters over sensitive issues will be handled on the discretion of the forum owners even if no outright guidelines are broken per se, and see the thread in context. It only requires you to actually spend a couple of minutes on reading the entire thread in question, rather than seeing posts in isolation.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 09:52

ffs - it wasn't within guidelines

the mental gymnastics people will do amazes me at times.

its not hard not to name call tbh

IHaveA · 25/10/2013 09:52

600 posts Hmm

Isn't everyone going round in circles now? This is like the bleedin' Leverson Inquiry.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.