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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:24

Oh, and we're sorry about not responding to some reports from yesterday (and indeed some reports from the night before). We will get around to them all eventually but we're still mopping up the backlog.

Thisfuckerisaeuphemism · 25/10/2013 09:26

It is interesting how that thread turned out though.

CDF went on to laugh at op who decided she couldn't post anymore.

Lazyjaney · 25/10/2013 09:26

I think some people on MN think that disagreeing with them means you are "goady" or "a troll", and conversely are selectively blind when people they do agree with are actually making personal attacks and being goady.

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 09:27

If everyone who said stuff like that got deleted/suspended there would BE no MN.

I am amazed that those are the examples given, having not seen the original thread

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 09:28

This is my opinion, copied and pasted from the thread in question, which I participated in, early on, and have read in full:

"But it is illuminating.

On this thread, CFD has not really broken any rules. She has been outright nasty, mocking, insinuating things about op, but she has not broken any rules. The rules dont say "dont bully posters", presumably because the people who made the guidelines were reasonable adults who did not think it necessary to spell it out.

Is there a fine line between being helpful and supportive, and being sarcastic and condescending? No, not really. They are poles apart, and therefore easy to spot. The first is helpful, the other makes you feel bad, and doubt yourself. And that is not what mumsnet is for. It may not break any specific rules, but it against the spirit of the forum. And that should hanging over us like a Prime Directive.

Looking at how CFD has posted on this thread, it reminds me very much of the mentality of the "cool girls in high school" and how they got away with bullying other students. They did not swear, they did not call names, it was all in how they phrased it, and how they presented, or misrepresented the op.

CFD has not broken rules outright, she has broken the Prime Directive.

While I like and respect AF, and have no clue who CFD is, this is not really in support of AF per se.

It is the principle. It could be between CitronellaCandleStorm and MacundoRainfal (and nobody would have noticed)l. It could be anybody. It is still wrong.

But, the fact that AF got suspended, and the outcry, it has made people stop and think about the issue, and trolling, and dis-ingenuity in general, and that is a good thing."

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 09:28

'They called CFD 'passive-aggressive', a 'bossy know-it-all', and talked about her 'officiously self-important posturings'.

LOL sorry, I can just imagine Kim jong un launching a pre-emptive strike over something like this.

'But someone on the internet said they thought my hairstyle was out of date'. BOOM

ScreamingNaanAndGoryOn · 25/10/2013 09:30

Fucking hell. Is this HQ sanctioned character assassination still going on?

Can I remind folk that AF is a real person with real feelings who has had to watch this utter car crash with no right to reply, while anyone who has ever had an issue with her gets to stick the knife in. Now with HQ approval.

I've always loved MN. I've always supported MNHQ. This is horrible though. Just really fucking horrible.

saintmerryweather · 25/10/2013 09:30

i had no idea how many bloody sycophants there are on mn, who are so desperate for a popular poster to like them that they'll jump on any old bandwagon without a second thought. the people responsible for this whole bloody mess are AF for not telling her mate she was only suspended, and her mate for posting the inflammatory thread without chevking the facts. seems a bit like lighting the blue touchpaper and standing back, since nobody came to clarify that AF was only suspended, yet MNHQ are being blamed for the hysteria.

some people are far too involved in this forum.and need to take a few steps back i think

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 09:31

"I am amazed that those are the examples given, having not seen the original thread"

There is not much to see now, MNHQ has even deleted the OPs hurt and upset at CFD mocking her, and her refusal to engage further in the thread with her problem.

It is so sad that a poster was allowed to not only be so hurtful and spiteful, and full of mockery, on a thread posted in Relationships, but also managed to manipulated mnhq into getting AF banned for calling her on it (albeit clumsily).

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:33

@Thisfuckerisaeuphemism

It is interesting how that thread turned out though.

CDF went on to laugh at op who decided she couldn't post anymore.

Yes. And we've done something about it.

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 09:34

Screaming. You bossy know-it-all! Halloween Angry

Grin

I totally agree...this is like airing laundry...and it sounded far worse and more serious before the examples were given.

Retaining a shred of mystery would have been better wrt outcomes, MNHQ! tssdncop anyone? (no disrespect Rowan but honestly) Halloween Smile

LEMisafucker · 25/10/2013 09:34

Cfd turned out to be the epitome of a goady fucker though. I called her a two faced cunt on her thread mnhq must have missed that. Maybe I should be suspended but then maybe cfd should be too. Just because she is more subtle in her twisted game playing. ((Hugs)) my arse

QuintsHollow · 25/10/2013 09:34

"how many bloody sycophants there are on mn, who are so desperate for a popular poster to like them that they'll jump on any old bandwagon without a second thought. "

On the contrary, I dont think AF will give one ounce of respect to people who "support her". Rather the opposite.

I dont care. I still have my opinion, and for as long as this is a forum where people can post their opinions, I will continue to do so without the faintest care WHO likes what I say or not.

Dont be so bloody childish to say this is a popularity contest.

LEMisafucker · 25/10/2013 09:35

What does tssdncop mean?

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:35

@PatoBanton

'They called CFD 'passive-aggressive', a 'bossy know-it-all', and talked about her 'officiously self-important posturings'.

LOL sorry, I can just imagine Kim jong un launching a pre-emptive strike over something like this.

'But someone on the internet said they thought my hairstyle was out of date'. BOOM

Well our threshold isn't quite the same as that used for thermo-nuclear war. It's just 'is this a personal attack?'

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 09:35

The secret service does not comment on procedure

Mmmango · 25/10/2013 09:35

I don't particularly think that a 1 week suspension is a terrible consequence for AF given the situation, things got out of hand because of a misunderstanding.

But what have been the consequences to CFD for derailing the thread so spectacularly that the OP has said she can no longer get the support from MN (AF and others) that she came to MN for?

bodycolder · 25/10/2013 09:36

Agree with saint some of you need to get some perspective on this. This is not your life but an online selection of people who all come here for different reasons and get different things from it. If you are saying things to get banned then maybe it is an outlet for things you would like to say IRL but wouldn't dare. A week off is a good thing if it has got to that stage Take a look around and see where MN and all these faceless people really feature in the reality of your life and the bills/school/work etc and you will see its a living breathing magazine with snippets of other people's lives and nothing more.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:36

@LEMisafucker

Cfd turned out to be the epitome of a goady fucker though. I called her a two faced cunt on her thread mnhq must have missed that. Maybe I should be suspended but then maybe cfd should be too. Just because she is more subtle in her twisted game playing. ((Hugs)) my arse

Well LEM... maybe you've got your wish

wordfactory · 25/10/2013 09:36

So someone actually reported AF for calling someone a bossy know it all?

And HQ took that seriously?

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 09:37

I understand Rowan, but those are possibly the LEAST offensive PAs I've ever seen on MN - I thought it would have been something, you know, of a calibre that wasn't regularly left to stand day in and day out on here.

Seriously it is FULL of insults far worse than those, I cannot see how they can stand out as worthy of this much emphasis.

Genuinely puzzled.

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:38

@QuintsHollow

"I am amazed that those are the examples given, having not seen the original thread"

There is not much to see now, MNHQ has even deleted the OPs hurt and upset at CFD mocking her, and her refusal to engage further in the thread with her problem.

It is so sad that a poster was allowed to not only be so hurtful and spiteful, and full of mockery, on a thread posted in Relationships, but also managed to manipulated mnhq into getting AF banned for calling her on it (albeit clumsily).

To be fair, that poster wasn't hurtful or spiteful until she was personally attacked - apparently for not conforming to the prevailing viewpoint on the thread.

As soon as she did actually start to break our Guidelines, we took action.

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 09:38

Plus they all sound like criticism of the posts - not the poster - as stated in your guidelines this is allowed.

grey area perhaps?

RowanMumsnet · 25/10/2013 09:39

@PatoBanton

I understand Rowan, but those are possibly the LEAST offensive PAs I've ever seen on MN - I thought it would have been something, you know, of a calibre that wasn't regularly left to stand day in and day out on here.

Seriously it is FULL of insults far worse than those, I cannot see how they can stand out as worthy of this much emphasis.

Genuinely puzzled.

It may well be because they haven't been reported, PatoBanton?

We don't see them if they're not.

LEMisafucker · 25/10/2013 09:40

Well I could do with a break

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