Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 25/10/2013 07:40

I disagree that there is any orthodoxy on Relationships and I am dismayed that this opinion seems to be floated here.

People rarely post on Relationships to say their marriages are lovely and their husbands / wives are wonderful.

Most threads concern horrible spouses and spousal abuse of one kind or another. Therefore most of the advice is along the lines of 'make plans to leave' or 'go to Women's Aid and have them help you make plans to leave' or 'no it is not normal for a man to refuse to give you enough money to buy food for the family or to ask for an accounting of every penny you spend', etc.

Occasionally someone will post something along the lines of 'this is partly your fault'. This is not what Women's Aid would say to someone who needed help in a situation of domestic abuse, and therefore nobody should expect to have such a view go unchallenged.

I do not understand why there is a perception that the truth of any matter always lies somewhere in the middle and therefore nobody who comes across as strident could possibly be right. This is simply not the case a lot of the time. 'LTB' is something of a cliche, but so many times a woman's life is immeasurably improved, and the lives of her children too, when she gets the courage to pack and go. There is no reason why anyone should put up with abuse in their own home or anywhere else.

Abuse can be identified just from reading what an OP posts about his or her relationship (do I get points for PCness?). It is not necessary to hear the other half of the story.

Abuse can never be tolerated and there are no excuses whatsoever for it. It is extremely important to get that message across even in the teeth of a huge cultural disinclination to see it in stark terms.

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 07:42

I didn't say ypu couldnt express your opinion? nice bit of pitting words in my mouth there.

im saying it was on a different (and awful sounding site) and not really relevant

we can't dismiss an idea without even giving it a go because someone had a bad experience once elsewhere.

MN have already said they will try it and end it if it doesnt work so it isnt such a huge thing

WereTricksPotter · 25/10/2013 07:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nkf · 25/10/2013 07:52

I'm amazed that people will volunteer to be mods. That's working.for nothing.

DixonBainbridge · 25/10/2013 07:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

NorthernLurker · 25/10/2013 07:56

I agree with weertrickspotter. Am also disgusted by the arse-licking sanctimonious posts boasting of how few deletions they would have etc etc.

Oh and this 'orthodoxy' (word of the moment there) bollocks is simply that - bollocks. There are some things which are right and somethings which are wrong. There are NOT always two sides to an issue. In Relationships in particular it is sadly evident that many, many women are in unhappy relationships. Some of those commenting inevitably will be in similar situations and naturally they are defensive of a status quo they do not wish to, or are unable to, change. That doesn't make it ok.

southeastastra · 25/10/2013 07:57

she has been SUSPENDED for just one WEEK jeez get a life people

FrightRider · 25/10/2013 08:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Venushasrisen · 25/10/2013 08:05

Being a volunteer mod could lead to a job as a paid mod.

Imagine reading MN (or similar) all day and getting paid for it!

ButThereAgain · 25/10/2013 08:10

northernlurker, I posted that it is certainly possible to engage passionately without deletions. And I did it because I was so strongly in disagreement with your post which said that deletions were unavoidable if you engage properly instead of seeking a false consensus. It is very unhelpful, as well as wrong, to call posts like mine boasting, arselicking, disgusting. I see a bit more clearly now why you find deletions hard to avoid.

Venushasrisen · 25/10/2013 08:14

Attracting more viewers and posters increases revenues and grows the MN business but the downside is that threads grow like wildfire, some helpful comments and some less so, the upshot is that the bombarded OP often shies away.
Threads then become less 'interesting'.
Not sure you can fix this.
I wonder how many hits MN has in any one day?

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 08:16

The only concern I have about this is the fact it has been written at a point where AF is not here to defend herself or challenge any of the issues mentioned in Justine's OP.

SoupDragon · 25/10/2013 08:18

Am also disgusted by the arse-licking sanctimonious posts boasting of how few deletions they would have

I was neither "arse licking" nor "sanctimonious" Hmm

EBearhug · 25/10/2013 08:19

Didn't MNHQ say something like 300,000 a day during penisbeaker (and that thread doubled it)?

(If I haven't misremembered, I am already on the thread about remembering weird stuff.Smile)

flowery · 25/10/2013 08:20

This place went absolutely bonkers Wednesday night, it was quite bizarre. I expect MNHQ find it a bit disappointing that so many people assume they would ban a poster like AF without there having been multiple warnings and without feeling they were left with no choice.

I've been here 6 years and since day one people have been moaning that it's not like it used to be, and I do think lots of people are over invested in the forum and the drama. And when I say over invested I don't mean heavily reliant on it for support, I mean over invested in the drama and politics.

SoupDragon · 25/10/2013 08:21

This whole hysterical reaction was perfectly engineered right from the start when the original thread posted by a friend said it was a ban and not just a week's suspension. It's utterly ridiculous.

MNHQ can't win.

They are asked to justify it. They do. People still whine and want more justifications. MNHQ give it.
People are aghast that they justified themselves.

Scarymuff · 25/10/2013 08:23

MNHQ have not given an explanation actually, despite all the shouting that they have. They said that AF broke rules in her posts to CFD and she didn't. I have asked about this repeatedly and MNHQ have refused to address the issue.

Ban/suspend by all means, but don't give out phoney reasons. I have already reported three posts this morning because they are doing the same that AF did on that thread - commenting about another poster's posting style.

If doing that gets posts deleted/posters warned, then so be it. But let's have the rules applied to all posters.

I also reported this whole thread last night, as did others and I see it's still here. No response to my reports at all.

SoupDragon · 25/10/2013 08:25

I also reported this whole thread

what is wrong with this thread?

Scarymuff · 25/10/2013 08:28

Would you like everyone discussing you, your stats, what you might or might not have said, when you can't even post to defend yourself?

Scarymuff · 25/10/2013 08:29

This whole thread is a fucking personal attack!

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 08:32

I agree Scarymuff

I don't get it

I did not see the original thread.

NorthernLurker · 25/10/2013 08:34

I've had no response to the posts I reported yesterday accusing AF of being a bully either.

flowery · 25/10/2013 08:34

I think when you get to the point that you think you are entitled to a detailed explanation of why another poster is suspended and then think the reasons are "phoney", that's a sign you are over invested.

I'm sure MNHQ gave their reasons to AF, and as she is sensible and level headed, I'm sure she sees where they are coming from and understands them.

There were all sort of ridiculous conspiracy stories going round on the threads on Wednesday night, it was quite ludicrous IMO.

Purple2012 · 25/10/2013 08:35

If there hadn't been the mass hysteria about a posters week long suspension then this thread would not have been necessary. Its not a personal attack just stating facts that everyone was asking for.

HettiePetal · 25/10/2013 08:36

Scarymuff

The reason that no one has bothered responding to you is that your "point" is ridiculous.

Has it not actually occurred to you that AF was NOT suspended because of the posts you can still read on that thread.....but because of the ones you can't. Those were the personal attacks, er, that's why they've been removed Hmm

MNHQ have not given a bogus reason, and I think you're damn rude for suggesting that they have.

FFS.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.