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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
TiggyD · 25/10/2013 08:36

"I also reported this whole thread last night, as did others and I see it's still here. No response to my reports at all."

Maybe, just maybe, and prepare yourself for a bit of a shock here, but maybe they looked into it and disagreed with you. A crazy idea I know, but possibly for some reason MNHQ don't seem to see you as a god-like entity who delivers truth unto us all.

Trills · 25/10/2013 08:37

Can I suggest that you give the volunteers a third button called "lock thread"? To allow a thread to stand but not accept any more posts?

Lazyjaney · 25/10/2013 08:39

What Purple just said.

SatinSandals · 25/10/2013 08:40

I think that, like a good school, MN needs a very consistent and clear discipline policy. They should decide exactly on how many warnings etc lead to suspensions and how many suspensions lead to banning and if any behaviour leads to outright banning.
This should be posted very clearly and then should be adhered to,regardless of the poster and how long they have been on, how helpful and how well liked.
I agree with Scarymuff that it shouldn't be phoney reasons because I know that happens.
It has to be fair and they can't take up against one poster and ignore another who has done the same thing.
I think that as the site has grown they have failed to keep up. They come in late, when forced to by the response to AF, when they should be in early and ahead of the game.

VestaCurry · 25/10/2013 08:40

You used to be able to buy that feather steak in expensively and it was a great cut for slow cookers. Haven't managed to get it since my bloody butcher had a makeover and went sodding upmarket.

SatinSandals · 25/10/2013 08:41

It wasn't a bogus reason with AF but they have in the past on at least one occasion.

Thisfuckerisaeuphemism · 25/10/2013 08:42

It makes me laugh that people think once there is an explanation then that should be it- in general I mean.

So on tackling tony Blair- why did we invade Iraq?
Oh I thought there were WMD there.
Oh ok ta lovely.

Or in asking why your kid was the only one not invited-
coz she's a little shit,
Ah right cheers for the explanation.

That's not usually how it works, why would it be any different here?

everlong · 25/10/2013 08:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheGhostofAmandaClarke · 25/10/2013 08:45

I'm not sure it's appropriate to give details about the communication between a poster and MNHQ. But I guess it's a tricky business running a site like this.
MNHQ don't really need to defend themselves. All that needs to be said is a repetition on the initial explanation: that AF broke talk guidelines. The details can and should remain confidential IMHO.
So what if there are lots of posts and comments about it? Ppl are interested and want to talk about it. Is the point of this thread to shut ppl up? I think that would have happened naturally. Every subject has a natural lifespan.
Besides, I don't really feel any the wiser tbh. But I accept that I'm not allowed to see the finer details because the "offending" thread/ comments have been deleted.

Anyway,Anyfucker if you are reading this; Suck it up. Take your suspension and please come back ASAP because you are valued and missed here by many people.
Hopefully we all can learn something from the experience. Maybe a "skills for dealing with Goady fuckers" thread in the "arts and crafts" section would be a good idea. Halloween Wink

Trills · 25/10/2013 08:46

If you continue to do X, you will be banned

What would you recommend?

HellMouthCusty · 25/10/2013 08:47

Well mumsnet, I think you have done a stand up job, I don't think you have failed to keep up and in my long posting history ( think I might have been banned on occasion - certainly deleted lots and lots) you are consistent. It matters not your mumsnet fame or long posting history, if your being a bit of a sod mumsnet take action - and that is reassuring

I am somewhat perplexed at the drama, but then there are posters who thrive on it.

noddyholder · 25/10/2013 08:48

Agree with hellmouth we are all like children at times and consistency is key Grin

Lazyjaney · 25/10/2013 08:49

What Trills said too. Rules is rules and should be applied to everyone, not just people you don't like.

yeghoulsandlittledevils · 25/10/2013 08:50

Am I the only poster who has had more rl drama to deal with than time or energy to keep up with the AF threads?

Am so glad to hear she will be back with us soon, and although I would hate to see a totally sanitised MN. I do think there are times when explaining certain viewpoints in relationships can get an unpopular vote, and some postwrs like AF will go where angels fear to tread. Ive noticed a few times she has explained things really well, either things I didnt understand or things I couldn't put into words myself. I really value those posts, but someone else probably reported them! Also she may well have reported a lot of her own posts as being repeats or misplaced. What I'm trying to say is, unless we have the full picture, the statistics cannot be used to reflect on AF, only on MNHQ's procedure.

PedlarsSpanner · 25/10/2013 08:51

wrong thread, VestaCurry?! Grin

NorthernLurker · 25/10/2013 08:53

And with this 'consistency' - how many times have other banned posters been warned? How many reports? How many deletions. How many cases in the system? How many posts altogether? We know all those things about AF now and we know none of that about ANY OTHER POSTER. The only thing that has come close to this level of disclosure as far as I'm aware is when Justine confirmed SassySusan was also washwithcare and that was and has remained HIGHLY unusual. I think that AF has NOT been treated consistently with the treatment of other posters.

Sallystyle · 25/10/2013 08:53

I am skipping all the replies for now just to post this so this may have been mentioned already.

I understand that people want to name change when posting certain type of threads. I wonder if it would be a good idea to consider having a board soley for the purpose of sensitive threads where you can have a anonymous name, but only for that board.

I think being able to change names however much you want causes problems and make it much easier to troll and goad someone you don't like. That may be an unpopular opinion but I do think these name changes change the feeling of the board.

PedlarsSpanner · 25/10/2013 08:55

yes NL, good point, hadn't thought about the level of disclosure thing

[off to have a Good Think]

SoupDragon · 25/10/2013 08:55

Would you like everyone discussing you, your stats, what you might or might not have said, when you can't even post to defend yourself?

I couldn't care less.

Anyfuckergate · 25/10/2013 08:56

Poor mnhq, what a busy couple of weeks they have had! The beaker issue, the news paper articals, it's no wonder the forum has been splitting at the seems. I do feel that the influx of newbies has not helped matters. M

passedgo · 25/10/2013 08:57

The problem with having a set number of reported posts is that you can't control how many people report you. I think mn is generally fair and does try to be balanced, but very strict rules usually end up with people finding ways round them so you end up back where you started. I think the best way is to deal with reports on a case by case basis. The goaders can be very subtle and would get away with it if the rules were based on number of deletions or reports.

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld · 25/10/2013 08:57

Hettie re- Has it not actually occurred to you that AF was NOT suspended because of the posts you can still read on that thread.....but because of the ones you can't. Those were the personal attacks, er, that's why they've been removed

Scarymuff was on the thread at the time, she saw the posts pre-deletion, that is what she means

SoupDragon · 25/10/2013 09:00

And with this 'consistency' - how many times have other banned posters been warned?

This isn't about other posters. It is about one specific poster. A poster who has caused a ridiculous level of hysteria. Why would they post information about other posters when people demanded an explanation about this one?

ButThereAgain · 25/10/2013 09:01

"I think that AF has NOT been treated consistently with the treatment of other posters."

-- Perhaps because a whole mass of posters themselves treated her inconsistently with other posters by demanding huge levels of disclosure, explanation, etc of MNHQ and accusing MNHQ of lying about their own disciplinary treatment of her. I think it is that mass of posters who have brought this on Anyfucker. Mortally embarrassing.

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld · 25/10/2013 09:03

I wonder if it would be easier for hq (and stop them having to delete so many scottishmummy threads!) if when a particular poster was noticed to be missing and someone asked, there was a purely factual list in sitestuff (locked perhaps, so only hq can comment and it doesnt get derailed) stating:

anyfucker - temporary ban for PAs
Xposter - not banned
Yposter - permanent ban for sock puppeting
Zposter - permanent ban for trolling

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