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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
Backonthefence · 25/10/2013 00:44

Well this is embarrassing I can't see someone wanting to come back after airing her dirty laundry in public. Not that I blame MN due to the massive overreaction over a temporary ban and demands for answers they had to respond.

SecretWitch · 25/10/2013 00:48

Lyanna, my hands were numb too, until I saw a rather nasty little thread started by an AF hater. My report reflex just had to kick in.,

LyannaStark · 25/10/2013 00:55

The AIBU one? Me too. Hands are alternating between numb and tingly.

MilllyMollyMully · 25/10/2013 01:00

EBearhug's post is interesting. I know at the time of Mouldiegate there was reference to how sites go in cycles.

I think it might help if MNHQ could give us links to research on how this kind of internet forum "behaves", and summarise it - surely it could make discussions more objective. EG we know we will have a mass influx due to PenisBeakergate; so what would research predict will happen as a result? How will old gimmers react?

It might take some of the hysteria out of it all.

SecretWitch · 25/10/2013 01:14

Lyanna, why yes! I do believe that we are thinking of the same goady little thread.,

PrincessFiorimonde · 25/10/2013 01:33

I missed all of this brouhaha, as I made the basic mistake of not reading any bloody threads yesterday.

However, in the spirit of wanting to join in, may I simply offer my personal experience of AF (as posted on another thread a while back):

Starting lurking on MN in September 09 and first posted (under another name) that October. On one of the first threads I posted on, I chatted briefly to a really nice poster called ScaryFucker.

Didn't use the site for a few weeks, and when I came back I looked out for that poster but didn't see her again.

Then I saw a thread about how MN had asked posters to consider changing names that might be considered 'offensive'. Oh, I thought, Scary must have changed her name accordingly.

Meanwhile, I did of course notice the sensible-but-fun-lovin poster called AnyFucker (though I'm not sure we were ever on the same thread), who kept her name - which I always assumed signified Everywoman.

But it wasn't till a whole year had passed that the penny dropped and I realised that SF was AF's Hallowe'en name. Blush

Any other fond recollections here, just until AF is reinstated next week?

SecretWitch · 25/10/2013 01:37

Lyanna, received your pm..sent one back..my iPad is acting all floozyish though..will be in touch in the morrow :)

SecretWitch · 25/10/2013 01:40

PrincessFiorimonde, AF helped me feel better about a newbie mistake I made. She treated me with kindness and respect. If I was ever in need of straight talking she would be the poster I would seek out...she is the bomb..

crumpet · 25/10/2013 02:01

The volunteer mods years ago worked pretty well (hulababy, cod etc). Don't see why it wouldn't work now just as well, especially with the support of "full time" mods which there will be.

Thumbfuckerwitch · 25/10/2013 04:36

I am guilty of not reading all the thread but have read the first few pages and the last couple and I also think that this thread should be deleted, perhaps in a day or so, to take the statistics about AF's posting/deletion history out of circulation. Anyone copying them down for use later will then be proven GFs who are out to "get" AF, as they won't be searchable for if this thread is deleted.

Perhaps if you want the thread to stand, you could at least delete the section of the OP that deals with her posting/deletion history, because I also agree that it will be used against her again and again if she ever does come back here, which, as well as being childishly pathetic, could make her decide to leave forever.

differentnameforthis · 25/10/2013 06:40

I understand where you're coming from in wanting to defend HQ, but that's an official drubbing of a single poster. I've not seen you do that before. I'm pretty sad that you have.

People wanted to know why AF was banned from posting for a week, citing how helpful & supportive she is. They didn't believe MNHQ when they said it was a week ban, not a life time one. They have been rude to MNHQ on threads, asking for justification.

You got your answer, MNHQ knew they needed to do more in this case than say "take our word for it' due to recent behaviour/accusations towards them. So they did it, they laid it all out for those who wanted proof of AFs wrong doings, and now, again, MNHQ are being unreasonable because of it.

They can't win, can they!

it needn't have been 'public' knowledge at all. I agree, it only became public knowledge because of constant demands for MNHQ to explain themselves.

I for one think it is shocking that AF got away with so much for so long.

Personally, I think what's left AF open to more aggressive attacks in the future is the number of threads about her ban and the aggression and demands of her supporters to treat her differently than other posters on those threads. It may have been well intended, but backfired spectacularly.

Wholeheartedly agree.

One post by AF is worth 10 by most posters IMO. This is what I have issue with, she is NOT more valuable than anyone else here! Her posts aren't worth more than anyone else's! And even if they were, only the op can decide if AFs posts are worth more than any other contributor to their thread.

If you have started a thread & got advice from AF & found that to be more valuable to YOU than anyone else's advice, then fair play to her & well done to her for helping, but making such a sweeping statement & implying that other posters support/advice/posts are worth significantly less than hers shows lack of understand for the site as a whole.

JustBecauseICan · 25/10/2013 06:59

I think the Moderators issue will have a far more lasting impact on the MN collective memory than AF.

And not in a good way.

Hearing that MN is going the way of the volunteer moderator seriously makes me feel a little bit sick.

(ex Babycentre moderator who spent far too many days and nights in tears over the actions of, in the main, fellow moderators, rather than other posters and who eventually left after being accused of a)hacking into private groups and then spreading lies about its members b) being a troll by other moderators who were trolling themselves.)

Bitter, much? Damn right.

K8Middleton · 25/10/2013 07:04

Just a couple of things:

  1. It is sex, not gender in this context. We have sex discrimination laws, not gender for example, because sex is a biological concept but gender is a sociological one
  1. I saw the thread asking for volunteers. My reaction was that it was a good idea but as for modding myself? No fucking way. It would feel like work instead of fun.

As for all the rest of it, I find the stats a bit grubby but I also found the hysteria a wee bit much. I think AF is wonderful and I like her very much but some of the drama-lamaing was a bit embarrassing although i do also think some of the reaction is due, in part, to the fact many people are a bit fed up at the moment with the trolling and goading and the site falling over. It will be good when everything settles down again. I for one will try to report instead of biting - I will admit I have been pushing my luck of late.

Oh and if there are better sites out there and you don't like this one? Well why not just fuck off over there? That's what I would do. Problem solved unless you are Justine in which case you're stuck

Reprint · 25/10/2013 07:05

Just wanting to mention that not all name changing is about trolls and GF's.
I do it all the time - and not from preference. It just only takes me a short time before I say something that I then realise will probably out me. I also juggle minor details - for the same reasons.
I have hasty unthinking typing fingers - but also an actual need to stay safe.

If restricted nc'ing becomes a rule then I could be in real trouble.....from a stalker, not as one!

NotYoMomma · 25/10/2013 07:10

thats a totally different forum and not really relevant Confused
makes you feel sick that they have a couple of volunteers to work alongside them of a night tine to help cope with added numbers/ pressures of a 'i want this and I want it NOooowwww' forum?

ooooookkk Hmm Confused

BeyondAnyFuckingJoke · 25/10/2013 07:13

reprint - someone suggested upthread that perhaps the namechange option could be possible earlier, just only by requesting it to hq? So perhaps in the case of a sensitive op or case of too much sharing, you email hq and explain, they have a quick look at your posts for any obv baiting and then do it for you?

SoupDragon · 25/10/2013 07:15

Personally, I think name changing is irrelevant in all this. It is a complete red herring.

JustBecauseICan · 25/10/2013 07:17

Yes it does. Am I not going to be allowed to express my POV then Notyo?

Thanks for your understanding. Appreciate it.

BeyondAnyFuckingJoke · 25/10/2013 07:18

Re the night-mods, they're not really mods though, are they, they'd just be doing their normal mning and if they saw a dodgy post, rwther than hitting report, they'd just be able to hide the post.

Perhaps posts should auto-hide after so many reports too. Not the permanent type of hiding, just the type where you'd have to actively choose to view it? So even if a load of trolls from an "invasion" hid a post disagreeing with them by a common poster, people who "knew" that poster could still choose to read it

K8Middleton · 25/10/2013 07:20

I agree Soup. Total red herring because those who use it properly are traceable and trackable and those who troll are going to troll any way.

Managing on an exception basis is better than a blanket ban of something that's worked perfectly well for years.

Purple2012 · 25/10/2013 07:23

MNHQ can't win. There's a multitude of posts calling for an explanation then when they give one they a told they have given out private info. I don't think they had a choice about the suspension or giving the information.

DixonBainbridge · 25/10/2013 07:24

I don't have a problem with name changing - because it's an anonymous forum anyway! If it was people's real names & they then pretended to be someone else - fair enough.

But who cares if "Pixy" decides she she doesn't want to have the one time she snapped at someone brought up in every thread she tries to partake in (and it does happen - a lot!) and renames to "Goblin"?

It's only if they then try & post on threads they're already on as their alter ego that it gets a bit ropey.

I NC loads, it prevent's people thinking they know you - when they don't. I don't want people on here dismissing a post I make today, because of a post I made last month...

trish5000 · 25/10/2013 07:27

I now appreciate how busy mumsnet now is. If one poster can generate 1100 cases over say 10 years, that is about 1 every 3 days, then wow, mumsnet has to be completely snowed under. No wonder it sometimes takes them a while to roll up.
And would I want to be a mod? Not for anything I dont think.
I now appreciate mumsnet more.

SoupDragon · 25/10/2013 07:34

It's only if they then try & post on threads they're already on as their alter ego that it gets a bit ropey.

And MN have ways of spotting this.

trish5000 · 25/10/2013 07:34

I think that yes, the site is now so big, that they cant win. There will always be people not agreeing with them, due to sheer numbers. If you imagined your 5 nearest cities being on here, you are bound to find some dissenters among them, no matter what you did.

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