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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
Anyfuckergate · 24/10/2013 23:53

Did no one try to actually voice talk with Anyfucker, at any point, by skype or phone? Because it is what I would have done, given how prolific she is at posting and the help she has given to others? I think that someone like her really does deserve that curtesy.

As to the giving out possibly private information someone should have been communicating this to her before posting publicly. Although I can understand how busy mn towers must have been today.

However I guess something can be learnt here, for everyone. We are all still learning and growing, I hope that Anyfucker can come back with her head held high (today has demonstrated how she has touched many people) and whilst mnhq re-look at the framework of this community and how to further nurture this environment (which really they do do very well, given the popularity of this site). I guess that we can also learn, to report when needed, to maybe support others more by realizing that behind every screen is a person (well usually, sometimes the cat may type up some utter shite, but hey she's a cat!).

Anyhoo it is late and those darn munchkins will be doing small person talk at stupid o'clock tomorrow, so long and thanks for all the fish.

passedgo · 24/10/2013 23:57

Rowan you really need to sort out your IT. Your inbox should be selective, you should have the tools with which to sort this. God it's such a girl thing to go all dizzy when the tech gets too much. This is the mumsnet problem. Jesus you can have a remote control heartbeat, you can predict the weather and see the stars with a phone nowadays. Surely a forum full of feisty females should be manageable in a multi-zillion pound organisation in 2013?

Part of me likes that this forum hasn't changed for years, it's now almost retro in its styling. I like that because I believe that function is more important than form and it makes people work harder to be here. But the function part isn't coping any more I don't think.

MaryZombie · 25/10/2013 00:00

Jesus, whatever about AF, some of the gloaty name hanging is fucking disgraceful.

Are these really adults name changing on an anonymous forum to post childish crap? I hope someone in HQ s updating the GF spreadshit Hmm

MadameDefarge · 25/10/2013 00:00

'girl thing to do'? wtaf?

MmeLindor · 25/10/2013 00:04

Passedgo
That's rather patronising, don't you think?

Rowan isn't going all girly and can't cope with the tech. They've been inundated with reports over the past 24 hr and are trying to catch up.

PedlarsSpanner · 25/10/2013 00:08

name hanging sounds terrible Mary

Pan · 25/10/2013 00:08

passedgo - as a process-analyst in diagnostics you seem to have missed the crucial bits, if you don't mind me saying. There will have been a small avalanche of posts to deal with and how it's managed is nothing to do with Rowan's sex or abilities.

PedlarsSpanner · 25/10/2013 00:10

gender, Pan, GENDER

MadameDefarge · 25/10/2013 00:10

weeping at the idea of mn being a multi-zillion pound operation...Justine has probably been posting from her new acquired Island, but using retro style Cath Kidston semaphore bunting flags.

Do you know the difference between turnover and profit passed? or is that too manly for your pretty little head to get around?

DixonBainbridge · 25/10/2013 00:11

Thanks Justine,

Far too late to slog through all the pages tonight but it's nice to see a clear, factual explanation of the events leading to the suspension.

Not an easy job for you guys, but a good call.

Pan · 25/10/2013 00:14

hmmm , I know Rowan as a woman, she was referred to as 'girl'...I'm probably staying with 'sex' but will ponder this briefly.....done!Smile

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER · 25/10/2013 00:15

Good resolution from last nights 'uprising', I'll say it again as there is still alot of wtf going on about it, that it wasn't really about an individual poster, it was about a bigger concern which mumsnet are now addressing.

Good result and reaction Mumsnet, thank you.

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER · 25/10/2013 00:19

I am interested to hear that you will consider the more subtle forms of unpleasantness if we report them.

After being very nastily and personally harried in the childminder/nanny topic of all things, I won't ever be asking for advice there again, which cuts off one of the only sources of advice I have access to for certain important things in my life.

I didn't report although I was very upset, and previous personal stuff was twisted and thrown back in my face, loads of blaming and ganging up. But it was all oblique and half finished sentences etc so it stayed firmly on this side of mumsnet rules... But ultimately was very nasty.

I ended up feeling like I had to let myself get taken apart or defending myself by give a summary of the last 12 months of my life in order to defend myself and hope to 'restore my validity' in those posters eyes. Which no one replied to as they were perfectly content to write their barbed comments and not come back, presumably happy with the thread as it stood. Thank fuck for the person that PM ed me to say 'what the hell happened there'. it was all very unnecessary and yet seemed to be an accepted way of treating people.

It's this kind of stuff which made me feel mumsnet tone has changed. If you are willing to look at this kind of nastiness then I think it will have an effect on the tone and approachability of the site.

LineRunner · 25/10/2013 00:22

Usual, yes, I have a big one.

KoPo · 25/10/2013 00:22

Did no one try to actually voice talk with Anyfucker, at any point, by skype or phone? Because it is what I would have done, given how prolific she is at posting and the help she has given to others? I think that someone like her really does deserve that curtesy

Really? So that is pretty much saying that AF is more important than other posters on MN? AF herself would most likely disagree with that notion. 185 out of 72000 yes it does sound pretty small but is that 185 spread over the whole of her time here or is it an escalating pattern?

That being said I have seen AF goaded a fair few times on here and yes she does sometimes bite back. I think she invests a lot of herself on here and has offered man many posters care and consideration. She has been more fighty of late and I wonder if she has simply had it with the goady fuckers on here. I have in the spirit of fairness seen AF make some very bad posts and she can be very dogmatic at times. And yes I have seen her call out people needlessly.

But I do believe that on balance AF is a very kind spirited and as a rule very wise poster on here. And her contribution to MN has been huge. Sometimes we need to remember that there is a human being behind those posts and none of us are perfect. I ask people on here to be honest with themselves and ask have they ever got it wrong?

MNHQ have had a very tough time over this and as a group we have demanded answers and then said those answers were not good enough. So then we as a group demanded even more answers with more detail. So MNHQ have now given us those details. So now a large number of us as a group are now saying that MNHQ souldnt now have given the level of detail that WE demanded. Now if that is not a cant win situation then I don't know what is.

Personally I am hoping to have AF back posting among us asap. But ultimately that is her decision alone and not ours to make or speculate on.

MilllyMollyMully · 25/10/2013 00:22

Good post, DoubleLife.

HerrenaHarridan · 25/10/2013 00:28

Well done mnhq.

Aside from not pointing out sooner that af was only suspended, I think you have handled this all exceptionally well.

Personally I appreciate the transparency you have offered and the interactive way you have discussed things.

Wine

Ps Rowan, I know 3 rl Rowans and they are all women Grin

passedgo · 25/10/2013 00:28

Am I the only person that thinks this website is a bit outdated? And that the massive increase in mn users needs acknowledging on a tech level? I'm not patronising Rowan, it's just that their system sounds outdated and that's not helping her deal with this. I'm also not capable of patronising because I'm not a man.

Whether they are letting down the sisterhood by being prehistoric is another debate I guess

MmeLindor · 25/10/2013 00:31

Women are capable of being patronising.

I don't think the site is horribly old fashioned. Remember the fuss when Classic Mumsnet was dropped for Mew Mumsnet? There have been a lot of subtle (and some not so subtle) tweaks over the years.

PedlarsSpanner · 25/10/2013 00:31
Tweasels · 25/10/2013 00:34

This is all good with me. I think there was a fair amount of overreaction last night (myself included) but, if nothing else some important issues have been highlighted.

I reported a thread earlier and it was taken down really quickly so even in the current quagmire the wheels are turning.

This is when it's a real shame Scottishmummy isn't around. She'd be able to put this into perspective and tell us all how pathetic we are GrinSo while the lines of communication are open HQ, has she be bannedor has she just disappeared ?

halfthesize · 25/10/2013 00:34

I think the op was very informative Justine and really wouldn't want your lots job.
I love MN and found last night was like being back at school.
let's hope everything is now calmSmile

EBearhug · 25/10/2013 00:34

I've found this all really interesting. I haven't been on MN many months, though long enough to have recognised AF's name. But I have been involved with other boards at various points, and it's been really interesting to see that the same thing happens almost everywhere.

Doesn't matter if you "know" the mods or they're entirely anonymous, you still get the accusations of inconsistent modding, cliques & coteries, bullying, massive uproar when a well-known poster gets banned, loads of navel-gazing and conspiracy theories and so on, not to mention all the stuff about, "it wasn't like this in the old days, it's changed and not for the better," "it's just a messageboard, it's the internet, it's public, if you can't take it you shouldn't be here," "it's far more than just a messageboard, it's a real community," and so on.

If modding isn't done by human's, it's really rubbish. Humans make mistakes, get things wrong, so it's never going to be perfect, but from what I've seen here, it's good enough most of the time. I have a couple of friends who are involved with moderation and hosting of other boards, and there are some really mad crazies out there - I think most of us do miss most of the worst of it (for which we should be grateful.) It's not a job I'd be jumping at. I think after an initial shitstorm, this particular event is being handled quite well now, and MNHQ are listening and adjusting as a result, which doesn't happen on all boards.

But I do find it really interesting that people seem to react and behave in similar ways all over the internet. Probably there have been a load of PhD theses written on this, but I'm not aware of any (nor have I tried to find out, to be fair.) It's a great thing, the internet, for all its faults. (Plus it keeps me in a job.)

LyannaStark · 25/10/2013 00:36

My hands have gone numb.

LyannaStark · 25/10/2013 00:36

That was to Pedlars.

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