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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
MilllyMollyMully · 24/10/2013 23:14

ButThereAgain, or maybe we will start irresistably thinking of the Prince of Darkness as we converse with them.

Scarletohello · 24/10/2013 23:14

Bloody ell, just can't get to the end of this thread, it's moving so fast!

( more drama than Eastenders on here the last 24 hours)

Erm was really looking forward to reading the AF thread on Baby names, ( mind boggles)

What was it about, people planning to name their kid after her..?

Can anyone please summarise it for me..? :)

( gin will be available as a reward...)

NotYoMomma · 24/10/2013 23:14

garlicfucker

AOL? shudder

MarmaladeBatkins · 24/10/2013 23:15

It is my halloween name, Rosa!

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:15

@OnemorevoiceforAF

How on earth is it possible for several names- including a couple in this quite serious thread (who have just had yet more posts deleted, by the way) to just keep going with nasty shit from one thread to another . And over a long period.

Those of us who use the site regularly get to recognise them. Including people like me, who don't use the term "feminist".

Taken as a whole picture , surely you can see this has not been handled well?

Well there've been 7 (I think?) deletions on this thread, three of them of posters who are on AF's 'side' (sorry to be crude about it but I think that's a fair interpretation?)

Of the others (having a quick look at their posting history and reports record), they don't show up as having been reported frequently at all.

If you think there's a pattern we ought to be acting on, we really do need you to report it.

reelingintheyears · 24/10/2013 23:15

A new thread about mods would be better form imo.

MarmaladeBatkins · 24/10/2013 23:17

Sorry I'm derailing even more by talking about pot pissing pourri.

garlicfucker · 24/10/2013 23:17

NotYo - Thank you for the well-deserved sympathy!

IamtheZombie · 24/10/2013 23:17

Rowan, Zombie remembers that thread as well. HQ wanted replies from posters in other time zones who would be online during the night here in the UK. Have some Wine

NotYoMomma · 24/10/2013 23:17

scarlettohello

its still there entitled something like 'if I had a girl tomorrow'

it was basically just a few people Blush mainly me going 'arrggghhh this is annoying as fook!'

RosaParksIsBack · 24/10/2013 23:17

It's already started re the deletion detail:

Spirulina Thu 24-Oct-13 23:10:43
AF probably won't bother coming back anyway.... Can you imagine the threads then!

Lots of threads in honour of her return. Yuk!

I read Justine's statement which have a breakdown if all the complaints and reports against AF. And Justine listed the times they have had to warn her. I was quite shocked tbh

reelingintheyears · 24/10/2013 23:19

It's not about sides Rowan, it's about what is fair and decent.

And when someone can't defend herself, well, it's not very fair or decent.

The last time I got a MN calling e mail it was followed by an apology because you'd got it wrong.

givemeaboost · 24/10/2013 23:19

Id like to be proven wrong, but I really don't think there was a thread about modsConfused

TheFabulousFuckingIdiotFucker · 24/10/2013 23:20

'Of the others (having a quick look at their posting history and reports record), they don't show up as having been reported frequently at all.'

so what you are saying is that if someone hasn't been reported a lot that is automatically an indication that nothing is amiss?

Spirulina · 24/10/2013 23:20

Ha garlic those aol boards were mad! Particularly at the time MM first went missing. Horrible

MilllyMollyMully · 24/10/2013 23:20

I thought it was about eggs.

RosaParksIsBack · 24/10/2013 23:20

Lots of nice personal attacks on the anyfucker thread on AIBU at moment, have reported.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:20

@ChippingInNeedsANYFUCKER

I thought Rowan was a man Grin

She soon put me right Grin

185/72,000 is an insignificant percentage. Given the Topics AF posts in and the fact that she stands up to the GFs and MTs and doesn't allow them to derail a thread - I can't see the problem.

That's without taking into account of things like 5 (or so of them) were probably on the thread that got her banned/suspended - where some very balanced posters cannot see that what she said was a PA and the fact that CFD is one of the GF's...??

I don't think you should be able to namechange in the first 12 months without permission from MN. It wouldn't stop the multiple sign ups, but it would help with some of the GFs.

Also, MNHQ, how much time is spent looking at other sites to see how they are laughing at causing all this trouble. It should be fairly easy to match up their 'boasts' with their 'posts'.

Sorry to bang on, but we don't have a problem with people 'standing up' and expressing strong views.

We have a problem with people breaking Talk Guidelines.

We think it's possible to state your case with searing precision, and remain perfectly within Guidelines. We see posters doing this every day.

The fact is, things got to this point - much to our dismay - with AF because 185/72,000 is not, in our experience, insignificant at all; it was very noticeable.

On your last point - if you see something going on on another site that you think we ought to know about, we'd love you to mail us ([email protected])

Altinkum · 24/10/2013 23:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CarpeVinum · 24/10/2013 23:21

Carpe are you married to the Dolmio man

The Rana Man please cara! He is more classy than Dolmio!

I hope your DH is okay with the knowledge he's going to be yelling virtually down my earhole the next time I notice it's 4am and I'm still posting!

He and his anti "all things based on the mysterious and potentially black magic powered internet, especially Da Ebil Wife Strealing MammasNet" outlook is available on loan for anybody needing to be pleaded with till they get off line. Espcially around the time I get sucked into thread.

lougle · 24/10/2013 23:21

I've just looked back through the site stuff threads. There's nothing between May 2013 and now. I've checked the title of every one

I'm not fussed on a personal level - no way I'd be staying up at night to weed out hairy truckers. However, I do think that it is a fair question to ask how the volunteers have been selected and why quite regular posters have no idea that it was even happening.

OnemorevoiceforAF · 24/10/2013 23:23

I will, Rowan.

But what about the other points?

RosaParksIsBack · 24/10/2013 23:23

Rowan could someone have a look at that AIBU thread? It's not very nice, apologies if you already are.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 23:24

@TheFabulousFuckingIdiotFucker

'Of the others (having a quick look at their posting history and reports record), they don't show up as having been reported frequently at all.'

so what you are saying is that if someone hasn't been reported a lot that is automatically an indication that nothing is amiss?

No - we're saying that if you think something is amiss, please report it.

ChippingInNeedsANYFUCKER · 24/10/2013 23:24

Were you Rosa, that's such a shame :(

I defy Mother Teressa to do as much to protect vulnerable posters against goady fuckers/trolls/mts/mras as AnyFucker did and not get a few posts deleted. 185 out of 72,000 is an insignificant number.

It is easy not to have posts deleted - all you have to do is rarely post & absolutely never stand up to the twats that posts to deliberately upset vulnerable posters.

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