Is it time to start paying for MN membership?

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

In the wake of everything that happened last night, I have been trying to think of ways to keep the goady fuckers and MRAs from repeatedly rejoining MN after being banned, just so that they can cause trouble and upset, particularly on boards like Relationships and Feminism.

If we were paying even a fairly nominal amount - say a tenner - per year for our MN membership, I don't think that is an amount that would put off people who wanted to join the site for the right reasons, but it would mean that joining, being a goady fucker, getting banned and then rejoining to cause more trouble, multiple times would get very expensive very quickly - and this might put off the trolls and goady fuckers.

Or are there other ways that we can think of that MNHQ can keep the goady fuckers off the site? Could they change the rules to say that joining just to goad people on sensitive boards is a banning offence?

I would gladly pay £100 a year to use MN - if it kept the troll-hunters away.

Sadly it would keep a lot of other low-income people off MN as well. But a tenner a year might deter the worst of the nasties.

£100 a year? for a website - christ molly, i think you might find chat a bit deserted!

I would, though.

What an UTTERLY UTTERLY ridiculous suggestion from someone who has a particular interest in this subject.

I am staggered by the stupidity of it.

Surely the strength of the forum is to introduce new ideas to women who might not see them elsewhere. PARTICULARLY WOMEN WHO MIGHT BE IN A POSITION WHERE THEY ARE BEING CONTROLLED EMOTIONALLY AND FINANCIALLY BY A PARTNER.

So making the site a) elitest and only for those who can afford it and b) making it paid for when some of the women who might benefit most from it are women who do not have that financial independence is daft beyond belief.

Seriously. Think.It.Through.

At time I despair at the lack of common sense that goes on when it comes to the "fear of the MRAs".

You get one incident and suddenly the whole world is coming to an end and you get a bunch of people completely loosing site of what the site ACHIEVES and all the other good that it does because its free and because it has anonymity in a way that other sites don't necessary have.

Yes it DOES have its down sides, but for the love of god love at it objectively and with a cool head rather than having a kneejerk reaction to one incident.

The second you start to talk about censorship or limiting membership of anything, you need to seriously consider the unintended side effects and who else will loose out. It is NEVER EVER just the people you aim this type of action at. Sadly it tends to also affect the people who most need the service or support and are most vulnerable.

In fact it would play right into the hands of the people who are trying to upset you in the first place. Can you not see that?!

puts head in hands and shakes it in despair

No because there's vulnerable women on here who don't have access to finances.

Bit harsh there I think RedToothBrush. Sometimes, it is only with joint discussion that other things are seen to come into play.

As with any changes there are always winners and losers. And her idea, at first glance at least, could be seen to deter some trolls.

If they have been banned then surely they can't rejoin?
No, I don't agree that it is time to start paying. It's open to all at the moment and MNHQ seem to deal well with trolls and troublemakers.

God no, I would not pay.

If you've been banned you can rejoin. It's easy to get past IP bans.

ubik it is a lifeline for some though, look on the threads about abusive relationships, ill children, etc etc.

Strumpet I never knew that, I guess it shows that I'm not a techie

I don't think its harsh. For someone who professes to have such an interest in the subject, it should be the first thing that comes into her head, if she really properly understands the problem, how women are being controlled and their needs and how they need to be engaged and have access to information without barriers.

If you simply want to drive a debate on 'how to tackle the MRAs', there are plenty of ways to start one, without coming up with a stupid and unworkable idea to prompt it. Treat other forum users with a degree of respect and as if they are intelligent enough to engage in debate without that.

Unless of course you are resorting to the lowest common denominator in order to deliberately fuel some sort of tabloid moral panic. Which if you are, you deserve to be called on that too.

Either way. It dumb.

octo I only know because I use to use certain websites at school to get past the bans they had

Sorry, I haven't RTFT but didn't there used to be a £5 fee for having the ability to send PMs? Or did I imagine that?

If so, I'm assuming there's a reason it was scrapped.

I think that new joiners should have their nn in italics or similar so you can see they have recently joined. Other forums show the date someone joined and how many messages they've posted.

I think you are being rude to SDT. I dont know her on the board. tbh, the penny only dropped tonight that there are two different posters, SPs and SDT. Not being pa but being rude. She is only trying to think of ways round a problem.

For the none techies out there.

The two simple reasons why IP bans do not work:

1. Some IPs are shared.
   eg each mobile phone networks has a single IP. So you can't identify an individual and if you wanted to ban one person, you end up banning everyone else on that IP.

2. IP addresses can be easily changed.
   eg if you are a BT user, you can go "power off / power on". Its THAT easy.

Virtually all trolls, who go out to deliberately and intentional troll know this. It is not exactly a huge secret (and hence why I don't have a problem posting it here as its not going to suddenly reveal a massive secret).

If you have a bunch of determined trolls, there is usually very little you can do to tackle them apart from employing "Do not feed the troll" and hit the report button.

MN could suspend registration temporarily if there was a particularly bad evening. But then the suggestion is that this is some sort of organised and deliberate planned targetting of MN. So this wouldn't work very long, as very quickly the trolls would just end up with people creating multi accounts and leaving them dormant to get round the problem (the name change facility on MN is actually best for regular users for their anonymity as they would be less likely to recreate a new account that a troll would).

Given I know of incidents where trolls have created hundreds (and I mean hundreds) of facebook accounts to cheat at games and in turn harass and abuse other players via facebook, I am in very little doubt that someone who had a particular grudge against MN might well go to similar lengths.

The best way to stop a troll is to not engage with them, and wait for them to get bored and go away. The debate, pretty much begins and ends there, whether you like it or not and whether you want to believe it or not.

Or they can use a proxy which a lot of people know about nowadays.

It's virtually impossible to ban anyone from anything

I wouldn't pay. I'd just go cold turkey or nick the phone of someone who as paid and is reading on the bus.

Phone theft would go up

If you think I'm being rude, fine.

But I am staggered by the shortsightedness on display here. And actually, being deliberately goady on this thread, might actually illustrate the entire point.

I might suggest that this shortsightedness part of the problem too. Trying to close down controversial debates and opinions. You can't. All it does is heighten the emotional responses, rather than the rational ones. The very point of trolling...

Yes. Sometimes there are sick individuals out to deliberately cause offense, but you need to learn how to identify and deal with in a way that doesn't actually make the situation worse.

There are regulars here who can and should help others when this occurs, by pointing this out and by dealing with the 'people in the right' by calming them, reassuring them and helping them - to try and reduce their emotional kneejerk reactions. You don't tackle the intruder - you look after the victim. You direct your attention to them not the person seeking the attention.

In short: The regs look after anyone who is getting distressed rather than using their energy to start a fight with the troublemaker.

If you really must engage with the troll, you do so in an intellectual way, a calm way and a way that neutralises their attacks. You blind with examples and you blind with rational responses in the face of crap. You make them look even more stupid than they are. You do not get emotionally involved. If you can't do that, you stop talking to them immediately, and focus on talking to those people who aren't doing it.

Learn what the point of trolling is and the methods they use to wind people up, and you can start to deal with it in a productive way.

Basically, I take the attitude that the OP hasn't got much of a clue or understanding of trolling and thats as much of a problem as the actual trolling itself.

Instead she thinks she thinks the problem 'must be eliminated' by banning it somehow.

Trouble is, you can sit on the beach and scream for the tide to stop, but it never will. You could just get a wetsuit and ride the waves on a surf board and have fun with your other surfer mates though...

Most people, myself included are still at the start of learning how trolls operate.
You sound like you have a lot more knowledge than most posters about the subject. So just impart it, in the intellectual calm way

I have seem world class trolling, thats very very true. Some which has caused an enormous amount of distress to individuals, including personal threats, tracking down people in RL, contacting employers or relatives and have ultimately involved the police becoming involved.

There are two types of particularly problematic individual.

I long ago came to the conclusion, that you can't stop some one who becomes somewhat obsessed with a 'cause' on the internet. The more you try and 'silence them', the more they come back at you and feel like they are vindicated in what they believe because you are trying to 'silence them'. The more they start to believe that THEY are the victim and their actions are completely justifable. They don't want to have the debate, because their minds are totally made up in the first place.

Nor can you stop the muppet who doesn't comprehend that their actions on the internet have negative impact on humans. They just see the internet as a dehumanised zone where there are no consequences and as long as its funny and they are getting a reaction its fair game. They have little or no comprehension of empathy and for situations outside their narrow world of experience. Its all a playground and a joke to them. Hence why trolls, tend to be kids or have some sort of a lack of understanding of responsibility for their own actions.

The only way to deal with situations with either, is to take a step back.

Present your argument. Back it up with logic and examples and THEN LEAVE IT. Don't invest the emotion with either. Accept that you will never change some people's minds and that actually its not your job to change their mind. You have to let them change their own mind and have the space and freedom to do this.

People's pride tends to be the biggest thing that prevents them from changing their mind. They would rather argue that Black was White than admit that they might be in the wrong and you told them so. They would rather think of you as some sort of joke rather than accept that they could be really hurting someone.

Instead my best suggestion would be for MN regulars to come up with some sort of action plan to deal with stuff like this. There is strength in numbers and strength in supporting over individuals you know to be regulars or can easily identify as vulnerable namechangers.

You look at what you CAN control. Thats how YOU react. As individuals and as a group.

I appreciate just how difficult it can be at times, - EVERYONE gets over involved somedays -, but the real strength of the internet and indeed this forum, is precisely the thing that makes it vulnerable to attack from difficult individuals.

Its freedom and its anonymity.

Good post I think.
I am beginning to wonder what job you do, or what hobbies you have!

I quite agree with you about ignoring. Sadly though, there are always going to be people who respond on a site this size. And particularly as it can be hours before headquarters arrive. Though that should improve wiht the overnight moderators.

Hadnt thought about the pride bit. That is probably undoubtedly true.

I am always surprised quite how internet savvy trolls are.

I didnt understand the paragraph after the pride paragraph.

A previous poster makes a good point. Those on low incomes and financially abusive relationships wouldnt be able to pay.

This is stupid idea. Really the answer is to ignore and report . I find the best way to wind up a goader is to totally ignore them. They will maybe keep writing goady messages but it just makes them look desperate and stupid imo. I dont think its particularly hard to ignore a few words on screen from a random stranger. Perhaps this would be when a hide poster function, for threads or whole site, would be helpful for those who feel they are unable to ignore.