Troll-hunting and subsequent Thread-ruining

[oneofsuesylvesterscheerios]

Yes, in some ways this is a thread about a thread, although its actually an interesting general point too. Plus, I don't want to carry on the discussion on the actual thread as it would be too damaging and would take it off in a completely different direction.

So... If a poster broke the rules and shouted troll, and then they were chastised (rightly) and the post removed, unless the offending surrounding comments reacting to the troll-hunt are removed too, the damage has been done surely?

We assume when someone posts regarding a personal trauma that they are telling the truth (well I hope we do) and if we suspect anything, we surely just ignore these days: we know the MN guidelines, etc.

And we know that certain situations in life happen to a lot of people (bereavement, loss, break-ups, etc). So when someone goes through a horrible time, the beauty of MN is that we don't just get sympathy and unmumsnetty hugs; we get empathy from folk who have been there themselves. We also often get bloody good advice, practical and emotional.

A thread that contains an accusation of troll-hunting is blindingly obvious even when the offending poster's comments have been removed. And thus, the damage is done.

When my dad died last I had some fantastic support from mnetters who'd suffered the loss of a parent and knew how 'rootless' it can make you. I'd have been confused and beyond upset if anyone had questioned my grief online. It doesn't matter how many positive posters there are on thread; just one snarky comment and the wave of a pitchfork is enough to send the OP packing, at a time when they might need the 'anonymous' support of MN most.

So, what I'm asking MN Towers is: if troll-hunting is banned, and it's fully acknowledged how damaging this could be on a thread that offers support to lots of people, often not just the OP, shouldn't all references and posts regarding an accusation be completely removed so the thread can remain intact and totally focused on the thread subject? Otherwise, it seems pointless.

To be fair - isn't a poster coming on and implying that the troll hunter is bullying and untrustworthy the same behaviour? I mean, casting nasturtiums and all?

And I don't think it's 'fact' that the entire thread is of no use anymore - how can you possibly say that no part of it is of any use to anyone? Troll hunting may have introduced a sour note, granted, but to say it's all ruined and useless is a bit dramatic.

It's both. I've seen some stupid 'troll' accusations that are just dim and cruel - where the accusers appear incapable of believing anything outside their own personal experience could possibly happen to anyone else. And some awful trolling that exploits people who are going through tragic experiences.

(Just checked and my profile still says I'm a hairy-handed trucker - did that because I was in a silly mood when MN brought in profiles and have never got round to changing.)

I agree with sue.

Some of the original advice is very useful, yes.
Is it a useful thread now for the OP? No
Is it a potentially upsetting/damaging thread now for the OP should she return? Yes
Could lurkers going through a similar experience benefit from the thread? Yes, as long as they aren't put off by the cry of troll and the fear that if they were to post in a similar vein they run the risk of being disbelieved (even though the situation is horribly common)

And I see what you're saying Sue regarding the accusations of troll-hunter making the accuser just as bad, but if we applied that to children who tell on the behaviour of bullies, then we'd be encouraging no one to speak up.

The implication made about the troll-hunter on that thread was more of an observation about the nature of this person's posts in the past, which seem fairly abrasive and provocative on the whole.

And I see what you're saying Sue regarding the accusations of troll-hunter making the accuser just as bad, but if we applied that to children who tell on the behaviour of bullies, then we'd be encouraging no one to speak up.

I see the trolls as the real bullies. and the troll hunters as the ones who stand up for the poor kids getting sucked in. they may not get it right all the time, but I really dislike this "picking on anyone that dares say -this doesnt seem right, be careful" mentality.

it seems that the troll-hunters are getting all the grief at the moment, while trolls are allowed to do as much damage as they want.

Blaming the troll hunters and causing trouble on the boards is giving the trolls exactly what they want.

But the whole point is that troll-hunting is not allowed on MN, as per the guidelines and because of the damage it can cause.

If in doubt, report. That's the advice. Yes, I can see it can seem awful to see posters getting sucked into what might be an absolutely obvious troll-thread, and the temptation would be to wade in. But I think that I've seen an example of what can happen when it backfires, and potentially alienates a troubled OP.

Trolls are not allowed either , and they do more damage to the site than troll hunters.
I don't believe half the threads in relationships , because it seems to be the place to troll.

Thats the damage trolls do.

"It's the heart of the matter when it comes to an established poster being called troll because they have changed their name for one issue and so an Advanced Search shows no other posts."

No, because if they wanted to post under another name for a sensitive issue, they could just get another registration with the same problem. Name changing makes no difference to this (or sock puppetry).

The heart of the matter isn't the trolls - you get these on every website and nothing will stop them. What causes the problem is the Troll Hunters making public accusations on the thread rather than contacting MNHQ with their concerns.

But how do we know?
We could shout troll on every thread then, couldn't we? Where do we draw the line?
If a thread seems innocuous in every other way, shouldn't we just leave well alone?

oneof, trolling isnt allowed on the boards either. but it happens. I know which I'd rather see the back of!

have you ever been damaged by a troll? because it seems to me that posters who rant against troll-hunting are the ones who've not been hurt by a troll. I, for one report, based even on a gut feeling. but if I see posters getting upset because they are worried about a poster, offering to start a kitty, offering RL support, I will post a "be careful" message. its not ideal, but thinking back to the real impact that dizzy, SS, CVQ etc had on others, and Hillllls had on me.... fuck it. Its the trolls that are the "enemy"

I just ignore the treads, I rarely report now.

I think everyone should be a bit more internet savvy tbh.

So it's not ok to call troll, but it is ok to call someone a bully? I know the poster that's referring to and it's not true.

Maybe you need to question why you're so happy to pass on personal attacks about posters as a means to backing up your argument while at the same time criticising the behaviour of others.

what TheSlightlyScaryStalker said. that type of snipey post is bullying itself imo, a personal attack and against the talk guidelines. or do they only apply when you agree?

MaryZ Sat 07-Apr-12 23:23:52
I'd like to know the percentage of threads where troll is called and they turn out to be genuine.

Not really Mary, well, not that I know but I've been called a troll several times on genuine threads and only because people thought it was an unlikely story.

Not because any of it differed from my concurrent threads or posts...there was no reason to suspect trolling apart from the fact it had never happened to them, and I sounded like I had a different attitude to them about the situation.

I'm certain it happens a great deal.

I think far more troll threads remain than get deleted.

"The implication made about the troll-hunter on that thread was more of an observation about the nature of this person's posts in the past, which seem fairly abrasive and provocative on the whole"

What relevance does this have? Or do you have an axe to grind about another poster? Not nice.

You can't stop the trolls. It is impossible.

You can stop the troll hunters who damage/hurt genuine posters.

You can remind people not to be so trusting and to always remember there is a chance the poster is not who they say they are. This is why I will never be "hurt" by a troll.

I'm sorry that you've been badly affected by trolling. I know how awful their behaviour can be; I'm actually working on a programme for schools at the moment on the subject of online trolling and its effects. It's a horrible, horrible side to online communities.

But maybe, in our rush to save others from the effects of trolling we might be throwing the baby out with the bath water? I can understand how being on the receiving end of trolling could make you cynical and more aware of the online behaviour of others. but it would be shame if it meant we accuse anyone who name changes/ posts in relationships/ has an 'online crisis', etc. of being a troll?

You can remind people not to be so trusting and to always remember there is a chance the poster is not who they say they are. but if you do that onboard, its troll-hunting!!!

Ok, I'll apologise for repeating what was implied on the other thread about the 'troll-hunter'. It was too subjective a comment to help the discussion.

I'm now dying to know what thread it is.

there are lots of things that get the trolldar pinging though, not just an "unusual situation" or unusual reaction. if you look at the fallout from CVQ, for example, many, many posters felt something "off" about her threads for a while. they reported, they didnt engage onthread, they even messaged posters who were being sucked in. yet, for months she posted and did huge amounts of damage.

if hunker (iirc) hadnt called troll on dizzy and found those pictures, she may still be here now.

those are the worst ones. the vampiric ones.

then you have posters who hold out the begging bowl, the ones who get their jollies from stirring trouble....

sometimes just reporting isnt enough. for many posters (especially when they first join) mn becomes quite consuming, they forge friendships and for many its an outlet, they dnt feel qute so isolated. these posters are prey for scumbags who get their kicks from hurting and lying.

Maybe MNHQ should give the troll hunters the power to delete threads. It would be better for genuine posters to have their threads deleted than be subjected to sarcasm and humiliation; and real troll threads would be gone in an instant.

It's the fact that the troll hunters' power/authority on the site is currently not formally acknowledged that seems to be a big part of the problem.

Ok, I guess it's another complicated issue for MN themselves then. There are many grey areas as well as the overt black and white.

I missed much of the kerfuffle for CVQ but I remember the Judge-y one (can't even remember the names now!). I reckon that was one of the first big troll scandals on MN; it was epic!

I do get it.
Trolls are such weirdos. But also scarily normal too.