Mumsnet on Radio 5 discussion today about after school clubs - what are your views?

[carriemumsnet]

Hi there

we're taking part in a round table discussion on Simon Mayo show at 1.30 - sparked off by the article below.

There are lots of other folks taking part, so won;t get to say that much - but if anyone had any concise thoughts and opinions to impart I'll do my best to make sure they're represented.

for those that don't have time to read the article - it basically says the govt have said that by 2010 there'll be wraparound care at schools for kids up to 14 running from 8am-6pm to help out working parents.

LOts of folks are up in arms and saying chidren need chill out time and time with family..

For those who do have time here's the article:
From Daily Mail - 05/01/2006 (630 words) News
BY SARAH HARRIS
BRITAIN is in danger of 'sleepwalking' into institutionalised childcare, an expert warned yesterday.
The growth of breakfast and after- school clubs means youngsters spend little waking time with their parents - and may develop an overreliance on authority figures, a study showed.

Dr Christopher Arnold said this could lead to children in 'wrap-around' care developing emotional problems and struggling to do things for themselves.

Long days are often packed with structured school activities, which could make it difficult for children to unwind, he added.

Under Government plans, schools will be able to look after children up to 14 for ten hours a day by 2010.
The 'extended' primary and secondary schools will be open from 8am to 6pm. They will help working parents by providing extra-curricular activities before and after formal lessons.

But Dr Arnold, a senior educational psychologist at Sandwell Council in the West Midlands, asked yesterday: 'Where does this leave relationships between parents and children?

'We could be sleepwalking our way into more institutionalised childcare.'
Speaking ahead of The British Psychological Society's educational and child psychology conference, he added: 'We don't permit adults to be in work environments for more than 48 hours a week, but we are permitting children to be in work-like environments for more than 48 hours a week.

'If they are to be looked after by the state, away from their families, we owe it to them to address the question of what experience of life they should have.'

Dr Arnold said wrap-around care is being expanded although there is little guidance as to what works best.
'There's a risk that if we overinstitutionalise children, then that doesn't bode well for the
future,' he added. 'I think they could become very dependent on that institution. That will not serve children well when they grow up in terms of being able to do things for themselves.'

Dr Arnold studied 100 children aged five to 16 in breakfast and after-school clubs in Sandwell.
Most enjoyed the clubs, but many saw them as an extension of the classroom.
Staff often set structured activities, such as homework, rather than allowing the children to relax and do nothing. Dr Arnold said: 'When you go home from work, often you just chill and do nothing. That's something that's quite different to the culture of school, when children have to be kept busy.'

In the study, a boy of seven said he was 'not at home very much' and a girl of nine said she went to after-school clubs because 'my mum likes time to herself'.

A boy of six said he liked his club but would rather go home, while an eight-year-old girl said she 'missed my mum'.
Dr Arnold said previous research has shown children raised in institutions have more emotional difficulties than those brought up in families.

'Historically, that has been the case. Whether or not that will be the case for extended schools, I hope it won't,' he added.

'For a long time we have been promoting families and family values. We need to make sure we don't buck that trend by creating these long school days.

'The configuration of afterschool clubs needs to reflect domestic life, they must not feel like more classes.'
The Department for Education and Skills said: 'All out-ofschoolhours activities provided by extended schools will of course be voluntary.

'We are not trying to tell parents what to do or make children stay longer at school.
'We want to be able to give parents and children more choice and flexibility about the services that are on offer from schools.'

But people aren't being forced to use them so not sure I understand all the panic. Useful if you need them, otherwise things will remain pretty much the same won't they? And isn't a parent an authority figure as well?

I think there is some scaremongering at work here, and another attempt at making working parents - er mums usually- feel guilty..('missed my mum')

There are some very good afterschool clubs and some rubbish ones too.
Kids can chill out at these and do lots of fun things that they no longer have time for at school.

I think it is important to have these facilities as an option.

I look forward to the day when dd and ds's school provides this.

I very much doubt that the majority of parents will use this kind of wrap around childcare for these kind of hours. But for parents who need flecxibility (for example who want to start work earlier and pick their child up earlier, or do iut at the other end of the day) these facilities would be great.

Let's not forget that many private schools provide this kind of wrap around care as a matter of course. It is often cited on the private schools threads as a main reason for parents choosing this option. We don't see the Daily Mail railing against that though.

I think pre and afterschool clubs are very useful for many parents and can be a god send.
However, I do have some concerns about how employers may view them i.e. if it becomes the norm for chidlren to be out of the home between 8 and 6 then it becomes more and more difficult for parents who would like to be at home or work flexibly to resist the demands of employers to work longer hours.
I think the needs and convenience of employers and parents need to be put int he balance with the needs of children. what is good for one is not necessarily good for the other.

there's a joke in there about the idea of a nanny-state banning after school clubs but i can't quite phrase it.

I think Dr Arnold is being disingenuous to say the least when he says "previous research has shown children raised in institutions have more emotional difficulties than those brought up in families." - being raised in an institution is hardly the same as going to an after school club every weekday in term-time.

For anyone who feels strongly enough they've also sent contact details for prog
tel 0500 909 693 text 85058 or email [email protected]

ds has a lovely time at his after-school club! Doing as little or as much as he wants with kind supervision from women he already knows as lunch-time supervisors and classroom assistants. He plays or reads. Structured activities? Institutionalised?
Many of his classmates who go "home" at 3.30pm actually do one or more of the following superior, restful alternatives:

• sit in a car in heavy traffic while siblings are picked up

• go to stuff organised outside the school such as swimming, footie, ballet, music, Beavers etc - either for themselves or with siblings

• get to spend unsupervised quality down-time playing Grand Theft Auto on a home PC (ds and his classmates are aged six to seven btw)

• are actually in de facto after-school care out of the home via the dreaded no-choice playdate, arranged according to who can help out, rather than who the child likes playing with. This can be way more stressful IME

And as Tinker says, most people only use them if they need them because of work or other urgent commitments - they aren't going to be compulsory.
Good, caring after-school facilities are an essential for us and we went the independent route when choosing schools partly because none of the local state schools with places available offered it then.

I like the idea of them but I know deep-down that they are not going to be funded properly and that just like schools, there are going to be some which are fabulous and offer worthwhile marvellous fun activities and many more which are going to be shite because whenever there's anything to do with children, you can guarantee it won't be funded properly.

Personally I have no issues with after school care, although I do noy use it myself at present.

What I do have an issue with is, schools being open very early in the morning, as I and this is my personal opinion think that the children just end up being left there too early and end up just waiting for the school day to begin, thus by default making their day far too long.

Wish there had been an after school club when i was at school - my mother worked and we had nannies/au pairs. I came home from school on the train, parked myself in front of the tv, played a bit on my own (older sister rarely interested in playing with me) had tea and went to bed. Once in a blue moon I played with a girl from the class below me who lived nearby after school. Grew up very lonely and with rubbish social skills. I would have given my eye teeth to hang out with friends after school, no matter how structured the activities were. (Obviously I was unlucky to live so far from school friends to see in the week). I think well-run clubs could be a lifesaver for mnay kids AND their parents.

I don't see what the difference is between leaving them to have a longer school day in the morning or the evening LadyS.

My DS is nagging me to go to breakfast club because you get a much better choice of breakfast than at home and then you play. I don't think they think of it as "waiting for the school day to begin" as such, they just see it as playtime.

It's a tough one because I know for some people this will be a godsend but personally I think it's a bad thing for family life. It's just encouraging people to work longer hours by giving them no excuse not to.

I agree that it's important for children to be at home for breakfast with the family and to come home and 'kick back' after school. I'm determined that mine won't have to go to after school club as I remember loving the hours after school - coming home and playing in the garden or out with my friends. I accept I'm in a fortunate position to be able to do that though and understand that there will be people for whom after school care is a wonderful thing.

In principle, I don't like it. In reality, I understand there is a need for some.

Just to add, I'm sure some afterschool clubs are a lot of fun - I don't mean to make out it's like prison. I just think, especially for little ones, it's nice to go home. The school day is long enough.

well, I'm all for after-school clubs. I think in the vast majority of cases they will be used for that extra 45 minutes at either end of the day, rather than 8-6 every day.
It will enable women (because let's face it, women do it all) who want to work part-time to actually put in a useful amount of hours, particularly those who live far away from cities. I live in the sticks and it will take me 30 minutes to get anywhere, so actually being able to get to an office for 9am would make a lot of difference for the sake of 15 minutes before-school care.
As far as I understand the problems with after-schools clubs are largely related to the activities offered - this can be changed to provide more of a 'home' environment.

My parents used to work very long hours (until 7 - 7:30) from when I was age 10 onwards, I used to be at home alone for very long and boring afternoons . Would have loved to go somewhere and be with other people.

Is this any different from a private daycare nursery which is open from 8am-6pm? Or a childminder? Should we whinge about those too?

yes, let's abolish childcare and go back to the barefoot and in the kitchen days...

I did send dd1 to afterschool club once - it is a tiny village school and the club is run in draughty old village hall with very, very few facilities. When I picked her up she had had quite a miserable time - there was dd1 plus two other much older boys who were watching a film that I thought unsuitable for dd1 and she didn't want to watch. Anyway it was pretty grim.

I am sure they can be great if they are attached to a youngish, biggish, forward thinking school. They are pretty grim places if attached to tiny, poorly funded schools where not that many mothers work outside the home.

Isn't it to get cildren out of poverty and the quickest way to do this is to facilitate single parents return to work.

I used a club for a couple of months in 2004 and it was pretty poor. There were no structured activities just allowed to run about in the playground. If it is to be done I think it needs to be well organised.

I am against parents working 9-5 5 days a week as this means they usally dont see their children 8-6 5 days a week. Especially during their first few years of life.

I cant see how this can not have a negative effect on children.

I work part time and struggle but I would prefer to struggle and spend the time off having fun with my child.

I feel sorry for these kids who have to go to these clubs after school. I have seem the children at one of my local places. They have something to eat which looks horrific and then they have this great play room with tv, books and toys but they are all wild. Its not like school so they all get over excited and really they should be at home relaxing winding down with their mum, whether its watching tv, reading a book, having one friend over - whatever it should be about winding down. Children need relaxing time.

I bet if the majority of these children asked where they would like to be at 5pm they would all say at home.

I know alot of people are in a situation where they need to work 5 days a week but I think there has to be another solution, start early and leave early? Work 4 days a week? Cut down on expenditure and go part time? Get a family member to help?

I cant really judge as I am not in these parents shoes. But alot of parents do "choose" work 5 days and put their children in these clubs because they want to and i think its disgusting.

Children spend enough hours at school, they grow up fast, parents are there for a reason.

dd1 sulks if i turn up unexpectedly and she gets to come home rather than go to after school club..after a tricky start (starting reception and after school club at the same time) she's settled really well, and I've never met a childminder I like enough to be an alternative form of childcare to fit in around my 3-day-at-work-week. (indeed i gave dd1 the option of a c/m which she turned down)

(ours is in our school gym, and i think that's a big plus. i've seen crocodiles of children in neighbouring schools tramping through the streets to other providers on grim rainy days and that's no fun for anyone)

That's a good one - "get a family member to help". Nice if you've got them around. Funnily enough, some people's parents are inconsiderate enough to have died or be disabled or too elderly to help out much.

Ds has just started after school club, only one day a week, he really didn't want to go at all but LOVED it, and wouldn't come home! I think it is essential for all working parents tbh - otherwise I can't see how any parent could manage a school pick up at 3.15/3.30.

One of the concerns which no-one ever seems to raise about these clubs is the food.

I'm considering sending DS to breakfast club because he wants to go, but tbh I'm not impressed by their food. Sugar-laden cereal, processed cheese triangles, multi-national sliced bread, instant powders - low quality shite that I wouldn't have in the house. Once or twice a week I for him to junk out on is fine, but I would feel quite uneasy about him eating that kind of junk 5 days a week.

true marina - mine are 300 miles away!