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Mumsnet on Radio 5 discussion today about after school clubs - what are your views?

72 replies

carriemumsnet · 05/01/2006 11:36

Hi there

we're taking part in a round table discussion on Simon Mayo show at 1.30 - sparked off by the article below.

There are lots of other folks taking part, so won;t get to say that much - but if anyone had any concise thoughts and opinions to impart I'll do my best to make sure they're represented.

for those that don't have time to read the article - it basically says the govt have said that by 2010 there'll be wraparound care at schools for kids up to 14 running from 8am-6pm to help out working parents.

LOts of folks are up in arms and saying chidren need chill out time and time with family..

For those who do have time here's the article:
From Daily Mail - 05/01/2006 (630 words) News
BY SARAH HARRIS
BRITAIN is in danger of 'sleepwalking' into institutionalised childcare, an expert warned yesterday.
The growth of breakfast and after- school clubs means youngsters spend little waking time with their parents - and may develop an overreliance on authority figures, a study showed.

Dr Christopher Arnold said this could lead to children in 'wrap-around' care developing emotional problems and struggling to do things for themselves.

Long days are often packed with structured school activities, which could make it difficult for children to unwind, he added.

Under Government plans, schools will be able to look after children up to 14 for ten hours a day by 2010.
The 'extended' primary and secondary schools will be open from 8am to 6pm. They will help working parents by providing extra-curricular activities before and after formal lessons.

But Dr Arnold, a senior educational psychologist at Sandwell Council in the West Midlands, asked yesterday: 'Where does this leave relationships between parents and children?

'We could be sleepwalking our way into more institutionalised childcare.'
Speaking ahead of The British Psychological Society's educational and child psychology conference, he added: 'We don't permit adults to be in work environments for more than 48 hours a week, but we are permitting children to be in work-like environments for more than 48 hours a week.

'If they are to be looked after by the state, away from their families, we owe it to them to address the question of what experience of life they should have.'

Dr Arnold said wrap-around care is being expanded although there is little guidance as to what works best.
'There's a risk that if we overinstitutionalise children, then that doesn't bode well for the
future,' he added. 'I think they could become very dependent on that institution. That will not serve children well when they grow up in terms of being able to do things for themselves.'

Dr Arnold studied 100 children aged five to 16 in breakfast and after-school clubs in Sandwell.
Most enjoyed the clubs, but many saw them as an extension of the classroom.
Staff often set structured activities, such as homework, rather than allowing the children to relax and do nothing. Dr Arnold said: 'When you go home from work, often you just chill and do nothing. That's something that's quite different to the culture of school, when children have to be kept busy.'

In the study, a boy of seven said he was 'not at home very much' and a girl of nine said she went to after-school clubs because 'my mum likes time to herself'.

A boy of six said he liked his club but would rather go home, while an eight-year-old girl said she 'missed my mum'.
Dr Arnold said previous research has shown children raised in institutions have more emotional difficulties than those brought up in families.

'Historically, that has been the case. Whether or not that will be the case for extended schools, I hope it won't,' he added.

'For a long time we have been promoting families and family values. We need to make sure we don't buck that trend by creating these long school days.

'The configuration of afterschool clubs needs to reflect domestic life, they must not feel like more classes.'
The Department for Education and Skills said: 'All out-ofschoolhours activities provided by extended schools will of course be voluntary.

'We are not trying to tell parents what to do or make children stay longer at school.
'We want to be able to give parents and children more choice and flexibility about the services that are on offer from schools.'

OP posts:
puddle · 05/01/2006 13:44

That's such a good analogy Fennel. DS's after school club is just like that.

SleepyJess · 05/01/2006 13:44

Wo has phoned in?? There is an Mner on there now.. I missed what they said.. had head in washing machine (well nearly!)

Enid · 05/01/2006 13:44

yes marina

try being a woman wanting to work outside London with none of the 'perks' that London affords you - by perks I mean a culture that in the main supports women working outside the home. Also childcare isn't that much cheaper but wages are considerably lower.

I work but childcare provision here has not caught up with the idea that woman want to work - for example there are TWO nurseries in the three surrounding local towns that provide all day care for children under 5. The majority are mornings only.

off topic but sometimes there is a gap between good childcare and a woman's need/desire to work.

beatie · 05/01/2006 13:46

Do children really need to wind down after a school-day? I wonder if it might actually be good for some of the more energetic children to be able to run around and let off steam before they get home.

motherinferior · 05/01/2006 13:47

God yes, there is.

And I do agree that some employers may use this provision as a way to weasel out of providing more realistic working hours. On the other hand I think (a) that this provision is needed (b) that very few peopel will, actually, do that mythical 'park them in school from 8 till 6'.

tortoiseshell · 05/01/2006 13:48

Women can't win. There was a bloke on the Today programme saying that women earned lower salaries because of their 'lifestyle choice' to have children. You don't hear about mens' 'lifestyle choice' of having children.

georginars · 05/01/2006 13:48

oh I keep having to go and sort out DD so not managing to keep up at all.

motherinferior · 05/01/2006 13:48

Good point Beatie - the reason some of the kids at DD1's after school club are dashing around is that they're, you know, kids.

Marina · 05/01/2006 13:49

I think the gaps vary according to the local market and that real choice for families anywhere in the UK is limited though, don't you think Enid? We have three well-regarded nurseries within walking distance of our house but no suitable registered childminders, which I would always consider as a likely scenario for the under-twos (we do have one now who moved in last Autumn, she is so great she has a long waiting list already).
Honestly though, are your local nursery fees really £900 for an under two and just over £800 for aged over? That is the going rate in our part of outer London. If so, then that's very bad news for parents in your area, I agree.
And London does offer loads of smashing things to do when you're off with them too.

georginars · 05/01/2006 13:50

snort at lifestyle choice. Wonder if the Today programme man realises that that makes him someone's lifestyle choice. I wish someone would pay me to spout this kind of nonsense

SleepyJess · 05/01/2006 13:51

Who was the Mner who phoned in?

tortoiseshell · 05/01/2006 13:52

Our nursery full time would be £750 for a child under 2, which is bad enough!

Bozza · 05/01/2006 13:52

I agree - good point beatie. Half the children at DS's school spend between 30 and 60 minutes on the adjacent field/playground after school running around in a pack while their mothers line the school wall. DS does this with the CM quite often and with me sometimes, only I have DD (only 1) to watch as well.

Marina · 05/01/2006 13:54

tortoiseshell - that is a lot. I wonder how average wages and property prices compare too...

tortoiseshell · 05/01/2006 13:56

Interestingly it was the most reasonably priced one in the area (though actually I didn't choose it on that!). House prices/wages are significantly lower than London, but there are a lot of Civil Service jobs which may pay better, and lots of commuters to London, so I guess they would be on the higher salary.

Bozza · 05/01/2006 13:59

Can't keep up with the pace of this thread. Fulltime nursery for us would be just over £600 - for any age.

carriemumsnet · 05/01/2006 14:02

All done

Thanks to all of you who responded - hope I managed to get most of your views across - as ever there's never that much time.

Thanks again - be interesting to see what if anything actually changes come 2010

OP posts:
Enid · 05/01/2006 14:06

dd1s nursery costs £600 a month (but she is only part time so £300 a month)

and this is in dorset - average wage much much lower here and chance of good job for a woman (or man for that matter) almost non-existent.

Tinker · 05/01/2006 14:12

Civil Service jobs don't pay well tortoiseshell

SleepyJess · 05/01/2006 14:14

You were very good Carrie! When I spoke on Radio 5 re an SN issue last year (they phoned me back when I was in B&Q car park!!) I went to pot in the middle of what I was saying because some mad woman was trying to talk to me about a trolley I happened to be standing near!! I totally lost the plot! It was so embarassing!

You on the other hand were great.. made excellent use of the time you were given.. very clear and concise!

Bozza · 05/01/2006 16:39

Similar to our price then Enid. We pay (as of this month) £387.50 for 3 days. And we are in Yorkshire.

tortoiseshell · 05/01/2006 16:47

Sorry Tinker - just thought that was an example of a job where the pay might be comparable, as they seem to have better benefits (the ones I know anyway).

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