Mumsnet on Radio 5 discussion today about after school clubs - what are your views?

[carriemumsnet]

Hi there

we're taking part in a round table discussion on Simon Mayo show at 1.30 - sparked off by the article below.

There are lots of other folks taking part, so won;t get to say that much - but if anyone had any concise thoughts and opinions to impart I'll do my best to make sure they're represented.

for those that don't have time to read the article - it basically says the govt have said that by 2010 there'll be wraparound care at schools for kids up to 14 running from 8am-6pm to help out working parents.

LOts of folks are up in arms and saying chidren need chill out time and time with family..

For those who do have time here's the article:
From Daily Mail - 05/01/2006 (630 words) News
BY SARAH HARRIS
BRITAIN is in danger of 'sleepwalking' into institutionalised childcare, an expert warned yesterday.
The growth of breakfast and after- school clubs means youngsters spend little waking time with their parents - and may develop an overreliance on authority figures, a study showed.

Dr Christopher Arnold said this could lead to children in 'wrap-around' care developing emotional problems and struggling to do things for themselves.

Long days are often packed with structured school activities, which could make it difficult for children to unwind, he added.

Under Government plans, schools will be able to look after children up to 14 for ten hours a day by 2010.
The 'extended' primary and secondary schools will be open from 8am to 6pm. They will help working parents by providing extra-curricular activities before and after formal lessons.

But Dr Arnold, a senior educational psychologist at Sandwell Council in the West Midlands, asked yesterday: 'Where does this leave relationships between parents and children?

'We could be sleepwalking our way into more institutionalised childcare.'
Speaking ahead of The British Psychological Society's educational and child psychology conference, he added: 'We don't permit adults to be in work environments for more than 48 hours a week, but we are permitting children to be in work-like environments for more than 48 hours a week.

'If they are to be looked after by the state, away from their families, we owe it to them to address the question of what experience of life they should have.'

Dr Arnold said wrap-around care is being expanded although there is little guidance as to what works best.
'There's a risk that if we overinstitutionalise children, then that doesn't bode well for the
future,' he added. 'I think they could become very dependent on that institution. That will not serve children well when they grow up in terms of being able to do things for themselves.'

Dr Arnold studied 100 children aged five to 16 in breakfast and after-school clubs in Sandwell.
Most enjoyed the clubs, but many saw them as an extension of the classroom.
Staff often set structured activities, such as homework, rather than allowing the children to relax and do nothing. Dr Arnold said: 'When you go home from work, often you just chill and do nothing. That's something that's quite different to the culture of school, when children have to be kept busy.'

In the study, a boy of seven said he was 'not at home very much' and a girl of nine said she went to after-school clubs because 'my mum likes time to herself'.

A boy of six said he liked his club but would rather go home, while an eight-year-old girl said she 'missed my mum'.
Dr Arnold said previous research has shown children raised in institutions have more emotional difficulties than those brought up in families.

'Historically, that has been the case. Whether or not that will be the case for extended schools, I hope it won't,' he added.

'For a long time we have been promoting families and family values. We need to make sure we don't buck that trend by creating these long school days.

'The configuration of afterschool clubs needs to reflect domestic life, they must not feel like more classes.'
The Department for Education and Skills said: 'All out-ofschoolhours activities provided by extended schools will of course be voluntary.

'We are not trying to tell parents what to do or make children stay longer at school.
'We want to be able to give parents and children more choice and flexibility about the services that are on offer from schools.'

i agree the places are like zoos, all the kids run wild my son was bullied really badly and no one knew then when i caused a fuss they still did nothing. two workers for about 50kids. i'd never use one now but at the time i had no choice

That's the only aspect of our club that concerns me too Caligula. Ds goes three days a week now and at our request and that of other parents fresh fruit is always the primary snack offered.

For us it affords some flexibility and eases the pressure a bit. We use ours as dd finishes a full half hour before ds at the same school and it is free for that period for her. She doesn't like the cold and there is little alternative but to wait outside otherwise. We already spend the half hour in the mornings between their start times together in the school sports centre, reading or chatting, even though there is a similar Before School room. It does make it a long day for her(she's only 4) but is practical, safe and now thats he is used to going and has a few friends to go with, she is much happier. I'm sure, however, if asked she'd also say she missed her mummy and would rather be at home !

It is definitely different to the school day - they watch videos, do craft type stuff or read books. When the older kids (aged 7-13) come along later I think it does get more structured and social. Some stay until 6pm, have tea and do their homework there whilst others just relax.

dd1 made a plaster cast of her arm..and the workers have superior scoubidou skills, obviously.

a lot of them are really, really crap though. I wouldn't send dd1 back unless I really really had to.

If there were only healthy dinners and the sessions were structured to encourage the childre to relax obviously free play time at the beginning then they would not be so bad. but the people who un it are usually quite young and not very good controlling them.

The one near me really is out of control, they are all screaming, chasing etc. The children are from the a really good school and not naughty they are just all hyped up.

30 mins to an hour after school is not so bad but up to 6pm cant be good especially if these kids having been going to nursery 9-6pm from babies. The really only have a family life on Sat and Sun then if they got to bed between 7 -8pm

carriemumsnet read this and weep

mums run ours

they are lovely mums and really nice women but have no idea

The mums who run ours are all trained and NVQed as well Enid and strike an enviable balance between quiet time on cushions and structured play I am well aware that we are fortunate with our club. Good ones do exist, just as well for those of us in the public sector, with jobs that can't be done handily from home for even part of the week, and whose partners earn no more than we do and rather less than the London average wage

Or Marina - the grandparents might possibly still work themselves.

I think they are a good thing because they offer an alternative. There isn't one at our school although there is one at the next school and I think that affects some parent's decision regarding school. So when DS was ready to leave his private nursery and start reception I really had no choice but to find him a CM for the 3 days a week that I work. Luckily for me that is working out fine but I have no alternative really.

My friend's dd goes to a school club and she felt guilty one day and used flexi to finish work early and was told to 'go away' by her stroppy child when she went to collect her as she was having fun with her friends!

She is 8 though so maybe different from a 5 year old, I would squirm a bit at a 5 year old being at school 8am-6pm.

BUT I have my lovely inlaws 2 mins away to do pickups when the time comes, not everyone does.

Also, not read all the posts so it may have been mentionned already but this article was in the Daily Mail, who would like us housebound from the first contraction to Uni.

Fair point Bozza. Mine are 81 and 76 and game for a couple of afternoons sitting watching ds after school, which I am delighted with, but I constantly worry it is too much for them. And they all bicker about what to watch on TV apparently

pmsl OO. Not just housebound, but on a permanent diet and feeling grateful to our DH's because they're earning for us while we just do useless things like clean the house, organise the logistics and bring up the kids.

On one level it seems really practical to offer this as it is really difficult to get back from work before schools let out. I'm starting a job next week which they say will be no problem but there is no practical way I can be there for 3.30pm so I'll have to use the after school service until 4.30pm unless my Mum can help out a bit. This is only 3 days a week however as I am only part time until next September. I feel uneasy about this proposal however as it seems to "easy". There is no incentive therefore to insist to your employer that they need to be flexible.Won't they just argue in the future "well you can just use the after school care". Isn't it giving them a cop out? There are some people who will totally abuse this I fear and a lot of children who will be in school 8am - 6pm.

That was in your response to the post a while back.

I have been really lucky with my CM - she feeds snacks of fruit/toast/yoghurt and although she lets them just chill and play quite a bit after school she did loads of activities when DS was there for 2 days and half a morning the week before Christmas - making Christmas cards, painted Santa face and reindeer, made a table decoration, made truffles and took them to softplay.

(Carrie doesn't sound how I imagined she would... .. She sounds like a teacher! Albeit a very nice one! )

I am Disgusting and Proud, Lovecloud.

I work. I like working. I also have to work. And even though I dictate my own hours to some extent, I feel I have to use after school provision three days a week - and I've only managed to cut it from four after protracted negotiations with my DP (a bloke. Who works outside the house five days a week).

I don't think we can generalise about clubs 'all' being awful - clearly some of them aren't. A lot, like DD1's, aren't utterly fabulous but are perfectly OK (much like the Inferiority Complex, actually).

So it's on now? What's being said SJ?

But it would have been nice to have a choice.

Carrie came across very well and put across a lot of the points you have all discussed in this thread esp. about the '10 hour a day' scenario being largely scaremongering. I expect she will be on again shortly.. it's the news now and then they are having a phone in to discuss it

Carrie managed to mention nearly all the point on here in a very coherent manner and in a pretty short time - I was very impressed!
(I sound like a total suck up, but it's true)
Then they had a guy on who has 6 children, 2 (I think) of whom go to a good after school club. I missed who he was because DD was screaming, but will try to listen more carefully after the news

you could listen online

I need after-school, because I am 30 minutes late for the school gates. Agree the 8-6 scenario scaremongering. We need a choice.

MI

am also a dreadful mother who works even though we could live quite easily on DP's salary. and who uses after school club even though there would be other ways of arranging mine and DP's work.

our after school club is lovely. my 5 year old goes once or twice a week and asks to go more often. my 4 year old is less keen but then refuses to come home and complains if i pick her up early. one of my friends sees it as the modern equivalent of children playing out on the street - a mixed age group of children, hanging out together, no strict structure. Ours get the playground, several rooms, and a computer room to play in. I think it's often more fun for them than just coming home and watching tv.

Sadly I can't JT, or I would. Might catch up with it tonight from home.