It's not just us who find Aptamil's campaign thoroughly shameful.

[milkymouth]

Have a look at what Baby Milk Action have to say about the Independent newspaper's decision to run their campaign as well .

[EnidfromtheVILLAGE]

well exactly

you've rather made my point

[Toothache]

No Aloha. I'm saying in my experience and that of my friends too. Sigh is right.

I tried the MW and the HV because at the tender age of 23.... first baby.... inexperienced and frightened.... no access to the internet.... I didn't KNOW there was anyone else. Noone even pointed my in the direction of any other support..... until I found MN when ds was 18mths old!

Only trying to offer the perspective of someone who wanted to bf, couldn't, and was offered no further support to deal with that.

[mumtosomeone]

going now.
Toothache sorry you never got the support you needed!
Glad it all worked out for you!
Enid go have a cuppa and chill for a bit.
See you all later

[mumtosomeone]

and you can position a bottle badly seen it done!!!

[EnidfromtheVILLAGE]

ah they obviously didnt read the box

there is a diagram on there of how you do it

[WigWamBam]

The fact that support for those who want to breast-feed but are struggling is so difficult to come by in the NHS is appalling, and I think that it's one of the reasons that the formula companies are (cynically, imo) starting these helplines - they have seen that support is sometimes hard to come by and are exploiting that fact.

What needs addressing is the fact that support is only available if you know where to look for it. Midwives and HVs, who are the people that women turn to in these situations, need to be offering support however women chose to feed - and they often don't. They also need to be aware of the various support groups who can help with continuing to breast-feed for those who want it, or to help come to terms with not being able to feed.

The NHS is appallingly bad at this in a lot of areas of the country, and it's a crying shame.

[Toothache]

Enid - I was given lots of diagrams of how to position a baby at the breast too!! Whats that got to do with it.

As a 13 yr old with her 1st period I saw lots of diagrams of how to insert a tampon..... it was still a lot harder than the diagram.... and took confidence too.

[EnidfromtheVILLAGE]

the fact is that EVERYONE can bottle feed

not everyone can breastfeed because is is harder to do and thats why breastfeeders need more support.

[Toothache]

Enid - But what about breastfeeders who need to switch to formula for whatever reason? What label do you give them?

[EnidfromtheVILLAGE]

er

breastfeeders that have switched to the bottle?

[JoolsToo]

surely midwives, hvs and bfcs are only human - they give the best advice they can right or wrong - some are sh*t I suppose but that's just a fact of life - like any job there are guduns and baduns - we ain't in Utopia yet.

it's funny you mentioning that mears post - I was thinking of doing so myself. on another thread in another universe - if you just heard the mother's story you'd probably all being saying 'what a shame you didn't get better advice I'm sure you could have breastfed with better support'

for the record I think mears advice was spot on! that's what a call a good, intuitive, compassionate woman!

[EnidfromtheVILLAGE]

is it offensive to call people who breastfeed breastfeeders?

[JoolsToo]

ever seen a man bottle feed? - er you need to get the milk in the teat darling!

[caligula]

The difference being Jools, that unlike most mw's, mears knows about bf and so is qualified to give that advice.

Most mw's give that advice because they don't know what the other options are. There's a difference between getting that advice from someone who would know how to support you to continue bfing if that's what you wanted to do, and getting that advice from someone who doesn't know how to begin to support you to bf.

[WigWamBam]

But Mears managed to help that woman in a compassionate manner, something that Toothache didn't get when she needed to switch. I'm sure Mears' lady didn't feel inadequate about changing to formula in the way that Toothache's midwife made her feel. Emotional support that we have made the right decision is important to all of us.

[EnidfromtheVILLAGE]

i agree wwb, it is important.

but what is more important is the confidence to realise that not everyone will be able to give you emotional support, because some people will not agree with your decsion. But then to make the decision anyway because it is right for you and not care what anyone else thinks.

a skill that luckily I have been blessed with

[WigWamBam]

Well, yes - there's that to it as well. But where that's lacking, wouldn't it be better if the HVs and midwives were better equipped and better trained to deal with breast-feeding? Do you not think that it should be part of their function to be able to help people with this kind of problem?

[JoolsToo]

in first place I think its a bit of a sweeping statement - not say disrespectful to say most midwives don't know about breastfeeding - there must be many who are as good as mears.

Secondly, my point was - that if the mother had just posted her story and you didn't know mears was involved - the cry would be 'what a shame you didn't get more support'

[EnidfromtheVILLAGE]

ooh yes definitely

have been lucky down here as all midwives in hospital very pro bfeeding and also hv breastfed her dd until she was over 2

[oliveoil]

My mw were fab, manhandling boobs all over the show to show me what to do.

[edam]

Sadly Jools there are a lot of midwives and health visitors who don't actually know a lot about breastfeeding, or how to support mothers who are struggling. In my day job I've asked the Royal College of Midwives and the Community Practitioners and Health Visitors Association why that is and they didn't really answer the question. I think part of the problem is that health visitors aren't always on top of continuing professional development but CPHVA were very unclear about that - don't want to admit it I guess.

[Toothache]

Enid - I really wasn't saying it was offensive. Sorry it looked that way.
It's all very well to say that everyone should have the confidence to make a decision and not give a feck what everyone else thinks..... but thats not the way it is... or why would anyone need support?

I had PND, which is another way I'd like to help women.....raising awareness of the symptoms and treatments (another thread entirely!). Many women regardless of how they feed their child feel immense waves of inadequacy at first. And I don't think there are enough support bases out there for that. Its like "Oh well, you're not going to breastfeed anymore then.... okay you'd better hang up!".

[milkymouth]

Updating.

[caligula]

Jools, yes it is a sweeping statement but I believe it to be an accurate one.

My evidence is that the majority of women begin to bf and by 6 weeks, only about somewhere in the low 40%s, continue to do so. I don't believe that's because women are just fickle and can't make up their minds. I believe it's because many start off wanting to bf, find it's incredibly tough and don't get the support they need because mw's and hv's are not trained to give it them. And many hv's and mw's believe that they are trained to give it them, and so don't point them in the direction of someone who could help them.

And I don't care if that's disrepectful, our bf rates are a disgrace. And that's more important. I'm not blaming mw's and hv's for not knowing about bf, but I am blaming the health service for not prioritising either their training, or the training of bf counsellors, whom the mw's and hv's would know were more expert than them.

And also, I disagree that the response would have been "what terrible advice" if we didn't know it was mears. The point is, the woman wanted to stop breastfeeding - she wanted to ff. If she'd come on and said I really, really wanted to continue to bf, but my mw told me not to, then of course it would have been bad advice. But if she came on and said "I'm so relieved my mw told me to ff, I've been so unhappy bf and I really wanted to give up and I was only keeping going because I was scared of what others might think of me, but I really hated it" then we would have all said, what a great midwife.

[milkymouth]

I remember the thread. I think the woman had twins. She had bottlefed the first and wanted to feed the twins but was having a real job. Mears pointed out that she would have to put in an amazing amount of effort to get the twins to where she wanted them to be in terms of weight gain and frequency of feeds to which Ii think the woman then decided to bottlefeed quite happily.

(Iirc)

A great example of impartial support and advice I think.