Tik Tok is leaving MN as a result of the Milupa advertisement on the home page.

[moondog]

Please good MN people,see sense!
Whodo we really need more,Tik Tok or bloody Aptamil????

This board will lose so much if she goes......

C'mone ladies,add your voice!

Message withdrawn

Problem is advertising for formula is everywhere - why not have a bf "advert" made by the nct to balance this - or a link to the nct website?? Could this be done mumsnet team?

We can choose just not to click on the advert. I always go to the advert sites on mumsnet - but will not go to the formula one.

Dismissive?..no i don't think i am (well i hope not anyway since i was one of those women with my first baby)

But.... i found formular feeding difficult too (and i don't think i'm the only person to)...i might have found that link useful tbh.

Moondog. Et Tu?
Are you really leaving? I'm so sad. I'm looking for other sites myself. Perhaps meet you on one.
Will now scroll back to find post where you announce you're leaving.

milward, there are such links under "Webguide" but agree their helplines etc could be given a higher profile.

troutpout, you "assume grown ups can make their own decisions about feeding."

Frankly, that's extremely dismissive of people who couldn't make their own decisions, because they couldn't carry on using the feeding method of their choice.

but they will decide how to feed then!!
Backing off now!!

haven't looked at this thread but just read the last few posts, and I don't want Moondog to go!!!

But if they have been persuaded to (say) formula feed because of bad advice or the misguided beliefe that formula is so similar to breastmilk that it makes no difference then that is wrong. And it does happen. I was 100% committed to bf-ing DS1 and the midwife told me categorically that I would not be able to feed a baby that size myself.

I don't think the one about avoiding unethical marketing to formula
feeding mothers and babies has been made yet. We are talking babies'
nutrition, here. Surely the decision on what to give 'em should be made on health grounds, not on what your granny used or whatever has
the cutest pic on the tin, or the brand that shouts loudest about being helpful to bf mothers.... we should be lobbying for
independent information and no spurious claims.

That is why women get information about formula written by our dietitians.

After all, don't women who use formula deserve to be 'marketed to' ethically and legally? Don't they want a better source of info about
their babies' nutrition than the different manufacturers of the products they are using? Don't they deserve to know the doubts about
LCPs, the documented and special risks of soya formula, what exactly the difference is between casein and whey based and a whole load of
other stuff?

Do they not wonder why Milupa is purporting to be a supporter of breastfeeding? It's solely because they need to reach mothers who breastfeed, and to do so with the 'news' that their product can be linked with the feel-good message of breastfeeding. There are many ways manufacturers promote their products by this sort of association.

The reason Milupa bleat on about breastfeeding (and they use the
slogan 'breast is best' which none of the support groups do, which subtly undermines bf, because if breast is 'best' then something else can be 'good enough'. Not many of us claim to
offer/do/have the best in every way in every part of life).

The reason is association, like sports racing and tobacco, Wimbledon
and Robinsons Barley Water, Gary Linkeker and crisps.....some of the
qualities of one rub off onto the other, inevitably, and that's what
they're paying for when they shout about it on Mumsnet.

I have tried to make it plain that in a small way it is because of the good help on the boards, which Tiktok has contributed to, that
makes MN an attractive part of their marketing strategy. As an individual, Tiktok could choose to ignore that and continue contributing.
As an NCT breastfeeding counsellor, she am not able to. She is not able to take off her NCT hat permanently and contribute either (another
suggestion). Everything Tiktok has learnt about bf comes from her
association with NCT!

I certainly do not have that tie with the NCT but I share Tiktok's concerns about the ethics of this type of advertising.

Fio2, and all those who said things like 'mumsnet is just a parenting site' and 'what's it to do with us how they get their revene?' (I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of the point): the point is that mumsnet is nothing without its members. Absolutely nothing. Because without members like tiktok on breastfeeding and mears on childbirth and the millions of other contributors to these boards, mumsnet would just be a list of products (without endorsement or recommendations) and advice from paid experts.

Well, if it's advice from paid experts you want, you can go and read in the library/a shop. If it's advice from other parents you want then it's either from friends/NCT/Other group or from mumsnet/another parenting site. So it is, IMO, mumsnet members that partly make this site what it is: there is such a consistently high quality of contribution and that is why mumsnet is a) addictive and b) successful and better than other parenting sites. IMO anyway. Based on that I'd say that what mumsnetters think does matter and I doubt Justine, Carrie and Rachel would disagree. How much it matters is clearly for them to decide and we'll only know the outcome based on whether they keep the advert (and let's face it, that IS what it is) and on how many people log off for good (sorry to see you go too moondog).

Sorry if crossposting is offensive.

planning to send this off to trading standards.

To whom it may concern:

At the moment, Milupa is currently operating a website which is aimed at breastfeeding mothers. I raise my concerns with Trading Standards for several reasons. My primary reason is that I fear that it contravenes the International Code (1) which bans advertising formula to pregnant women or women with babies under 6 months. However, in my laywoman?s estimation I believe that the following articles of the International are also being breached by Milupa: 4.2 , 5.1, 5.2, 6.4 .

Milupa in my estimation has been very clever in disguising their infomercial website as a place where mums can meet, learn and discuss issues related to motherhood. Undoubtedly, one of the main topics for mums and mum-to-be will be feeding. Milupa has therefore provided a ?breastfeeding helpline? for concerned mums to ring.

Milupa knows fully well that 46% of UK mothers are no longer breastfeeding within six weeks of giving birth and it is down to 22% by six months. (2) They are therefore using this infomercial website to connect with those mothers who when they contact a helpline will be fraught with anxieties and very much accepting to the suggestion of a ?professional?.

It has been the experience of one mum who rang to find that the advisor who claimed to be a midwife vigorously pushed topping up her baby with formula. (3)

From my own experience, when I had a breastfeeding crisis at 3 weeks, I was pushed to top up with formula by my health visitor. I got a second opinion from an NCT counsellor who reassured and advised me on how to progress. Had I rang this helpline for a second opinion, I would have accepted the advice of their ?midwife? advisor instead as I was lonely, desperate, scared and under informed about breastfeeding at that time. Now that I understand how breastfeeding works, I estimate that within days I would have been totally formula feeding, much against my own wishes and abilities. I am currently still exclusively breastfeeding my 18 week only baby. (4)

There is a debate currently raging on Mumsnet.com, one of the UK?s best known motherhood websites, over this infomercial website. I am providing the links to the threads where many other valid concerns are raised which my letter has not touched.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=1364&threadid=98457&stamp=050824090936

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=1364&threadid=101169&stamp=050823231310

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=1374&threadid=101173&stamp=050824183048

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=1374&threadid=101327#scaddmsg

footnotes:

(1) www.babymilkaction.org/regs/fullcode.html

(2) www.show.scot.nhs.uk/breastfeed/stats.htm

(3)
By icklelulu on Tuesday, 16 August, 2005 4:53:26 PM
I have just got thru!They didnt mention formula for a few mins and I was thinking 'hmmm wots going on'! THEN 'maybe you should compliment your baby' that was it she kept metioning it after that! I said I was very determined to exculsively breastfeed even if I was finding it hard only using one boob(BTW I used the abscess story, it was true so I couldnt really go wrong). I asked if she was quilified and she used to work as a midwife. Suggested the usual things to try to make my only usable boob comfortable. Lasinoh, leaving milk to dry on the nipple etc She said it wouldnt be the end of the world if I did have to compliment my DS with a formula feed. I must say though I was quite surprised, I thought they would have unqualified persons on the phone and that they would tell me to just give up breastfeeding but saying that once formula was mentioned it kept cropping up ALOT! I thought she might stop mentioning formula as I was emphasising the fact that breast is best and thats wot I intended my DS to have.

(4) www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=1364&threadid=75972#1669173

oops correction in order: only 46% of UK mothers are breastfeeding at 6 wks and only 22% at 6 months.

I'm surprised it is as high as 46%.

I've asked Baby Milk Action to cast their expert eye over it too.

This is Baby Milk Action's comment re the current campaign in the Independent here

just read your link Tinker - very interesting, thanks for posting it.

I wonder if Justine, Carrie and Rachel have seen it. I, for one, would be very interested in their feelings over Milupa?s advertising style after reading that article.
TBH confirms what a lot of us have been thinking/posting.

If the bottom line was milupa advertising in some form, or mumsnet going out of business, what would people say then?

I hate the the advice line concept- posted on another thread about this - but if it was a stark choice between mumsnet and no mumsnet, is there a way Milupa could advertise here if they amended their ad according to guidelines?

IMO, if other breastfeeding charity ads and advice lines were positioned right by the Milupa ad on mumsnet, and mumsnet ran a disclaimer, saying the site did not endorse any single breast or bottle feeding site AND also gave a big plug and link to the breast and bottle discussions right here on mumsnet talk - I would feel ok about it, I think.

hmm

Tiktok has given me more help over the years than aptimil

I totally understand her decision to leave, its like a slap in the face after all her wise advice and all the FREE advice she has given on here.

Well Aptimil might generate some extra income but experts like Tiktok are what made mumsnet such a good site and if you lose them all, then there will be nothing to distinguish mumsnet from all the others out there.

FWIW, I actually fed my baby Aptimil when I stopped breastfeeding but I still find it repulsive that they need to tout for business.

Agree enid. Whilst I'm sure M are paying well for it, it could cost MN a lot more in terms of lost credibility if "experts" feel it is a compromise too far. At the end of the dya that will affect those for whom their advice is most vital. I still wonder if the use of the A brand name is actually even just within the ASA standards since it is an umbrella name for all their milk products including Infant Formula.

Can anyone direct me to any threads where there are clear explanations of the harm that feeding formula does babies?

I would like to understand what the risks are if you chose to bottle feed. I understand that breastfeeding has many, many benefits, but I don't understand if there is actual evidence that formula is harmful (in the UK, obviously. I do understand that it is a killer in countries where water supplies are not reliable).

Please, I'm sure this discussion has already been done to death in other threads, so I don't want to revive it here - just a link will be enough.

i always thought that bottle feeding is second best because it lacks things that breastfeeding can offer babies - not that it is actually harmful

well Enids Own Old Wives Tale about formula fed babies is that they make fussy eaters as the poor old babies get one taste rather than the varied taste of breastmilk

Gizmo I don't think there's any harm done to a baby by feeding them formula and I don't think anyone has said there is.

But I do remember Mears (? maybe?) once posting that the biggest reason for admission of children under 1 into hospital is for gastric problems, and that those babies are disproportionately likely to be bottlefed.