double buggy or tandem

[susanita]

Hi
I'm expecting nr2 in May when my son will be just over 2 years old. I doubt he'll be able to walk for long periods of time so I'm considering buying a cheapish double buggy or tandem.
I've heard that tandems can be a problem because the heavy child sits in the front and this can make it difficult to go up & down kerbs etc. I'm concerned about a double buggy 'cos of the width and being able to get through doors (and whether my 2 year old will fit nicely in the seat).
Does anyone have experience of one/either/both or could anyone recommend either double buggy or tandem. I know that there are reviews on the site but it's just confused me more.
Thanks

Well I've managed to put it together - only took me all day !! To be fair though it was quite simple when I got the idea - it was trying to understand how the newborn wings worked. Admittedly looking at the instructions would have helped.

It does look very big after my little Maclaren buggy which DS has got used to. DS looked at it assembled and said WOW - he was particularly impressed by the big wheels. The area where the newborn lies looks quite secure and cosy - though I think I will have to get a nice cosy sheepskin for him to lie on, as the mattress is solid but not the most cosy to lie on. Certainly the handling and supension looks fab and will breeze over long country walks.

Interestingly enough the woman next door has the Emmalungja with toddler seat - which she has just constructed. That would have been the other alternative for me as my front door is too narrow for a double buggy. It looks very luxurious but obviously the toddler can't lie down. I wonder how comfy that would be over long distances.

First impressions - if you like long walks which I do then the Explorer is going to eat up the miles and I should be able to bump it up and down my stairs with baby and toddler. The big issue is going to whether my toddler is going to be happy in it - as the angle of his seat is lower than he is used to in his present Maclaren buggy. I suppose that is the same with all three wheelers. Only time will tell !!

Not sure if we are going to get a proper chance to try it out this weekend - as we have a lot of visits and visitors.

Anyway watch this space for an update.
Kaz33

Kaz, when you give us an update it would also be interesting to hear what your neighbour makes of her Emmaljunga, if you've had any feedback from her. I am dithering over buying one (put off by price and the fact that my dd will be 2/6yrs and might well refuse to sit up high in the Emmaljunga toddler seat. She also weighs a ton so if the basic Emmaljunga is heavier than the Kiwi Explorer perhaps the Explorer would be a better bet.

Looking forward to reading your verdict on the Kiwi Explorer!

Kaz - how long is it with baby seat in it? I asked the Kiwi people and they only gave me width and height and then the 3D collapsed dimensions, but I need to know if it will fit in our shared entrance hall without having to collapse it every time we get back from walking the dog...
How does it handle then? Did you go off piste?

I didn't know about the vat as extra!!!!. I wrongly assumed that everything had been accounted for when they new it was for the U.K., DH is going to get a nasty shock!

We were lucky enough to get the child lifter insert free so that should make the baby bit comfy. However I will not be able to give a review of the baby bit for quite some time as we are still trying for number two! We ordered it so early as it was the last of the specials and I am sick of my 4 wheeler as it is too big.

Hi, we got to take it for a trip on Sunday up to Hyde Park - where another family with 2 toddlers were using theirs. So no points for exclusivity there.

On the VAT - I didn't know either and there was no mention on the website. They get round this I suppose by saying that sales tax is different for each country and can only be charged on entrance. Ours was just under £70 on a final price of just over £300.

Pros

It is the same length with the baby seat in it as without and also in fact with the toddler seat in it. It gets in through our narrow front door no problem. Haven't yet had a go at collapsing it, though it does seem quite sensibly designed so should not be a problem.

DP bounced it down our stairs to our flat no problem at all - as I'm six months gone I get out of all the hard manual labour. So shouldn't be a problem with baby in it as well, though could be quite hard work with two toddlers.

Handling is good and the front wheel can be either fixed or rotating. No problems off roading because of the big tyres and suspension. The higher level handle height was perfect for me ( 5ft 9" ) - there is also a lower level height for the handle.

The new baby/ extra toddler seat is well designed and it is easy to click in and out of the frame.

DS liked it, well he didn't complain - but hey early days.

After having had the security of a big framed pram for DS1 it will be very odd to place a newborn in the newborn area, a sort of sling under the main seat. But I think it is very much personal preference - some mums would hate it I think ( especially first timers ). I also have the child lifter which will give more security. I am going to invest in a comfy sheepskin to make the baby feel a little more secure and buffeted.

CONS

There only two seat positions for the toddler seat. Though the seat is comfy, the harness easy to attach and he was happy to try out his new buggy - he wanted to sit up higher and the position was forcing him to slouch down. We stuffed a jumper down the back so he had some more support and he was perfectly happy. I am going to invest in a little pillow for him.

If I just had one baby I don't think that i would buy it for a newborn or a toddler as there are better single buggies out there. Only having the two seat positions is definitley a disadvantage.

As I said before some mums would hate the newborn position not feeling that baby is enconsed in a luxurious or stable enough environment.

The stability is good, though is never going to be as stable as a 4 wheeler.

In conclusion - I think we made the right decision for us. We needed a narrow double buggy, that could be bumped down two flights of steps, reasonably manoevureable around London shops but also capable of long off piste walks. There is never going to be an ideal solution but this does appear to be the only buggy that I could find that dealt with those criteria. Anyway only time will tell and the arrival of DS2 in three months. Now I've got my pram sorted all I need to do is lick those midwifes into shape so I get the birth I want !!

I haven't spoken to our neighbour about the Emmalungja with toddler seat. I presently work full time so only ever bump into her on the stairs - everything you hate about London, unfriendly neighbours ( thats me as well !!). Certainly her son has to walk up the stairs and I have never seen him in his toddler seat..
When I see her next I will ask though.

Hope thats helpful. If anyone is in the South West London area and wants to "try before they buy" - do feel free to ask.

Kaz33 - I haven't posted to this thread but have been following it with interest (ds has just turned 2 and d?2 is due in early Sept). I'm in SW London and would really appreciate taking you up on your offer, if you mean it!

No problems NQWWW - get my e mail address from Tech.

I have a 2 yr old (25 lbs?) and a 5 mth old (10 lbs?) and I ended up (after mega consideration) getting a secondhand Emmaljunga with a toddler seat. For us it is brilliant - easy to push, stable, can put loads of groceries in bottom, etc. My older daughter loves the high seat and being able to face me so we can chat. We live in East London (nr Liverpool St) and I would be happy for anyone to do a 'test drive' if they are thinking about buying similar (can even provide the babbies!)

This is excellent - I work in Moorgate so might well be over to see you so I can compare and contrast!

They often have secondhand Emmaljungas on ebay. You don't have to trawl through all the prams, just go to the home page and type Emmaljunga into the search facility and it comes up with whatever it's got.

STOP......nobody has mentioned a buggy board have they???? its less than £40 and just clips onto the front of your pram. Toddler stands on it, and gets pushed along with the pram. So easy/cheap and they love it. And as the toddler gets older he can hop on and off depending how energetic he feels.

IMHO Double prams of any sort seems so heavy/big and very expensive for such a short time!

Thanks Kaz for your excellent write up! Am even keener to get mine now. Are you sure it's the same length with the baby bit in it? Can't quite believe it. Also great to know it has adjustable handles, as I am nearly 6ft.
Lil - I know buggy boards are a great idea - I would have much prefered that (far cheaper) option. But firstly my current 3 wheeler would not fit a buggy board (the place to clip it to is actually the brake - any bouncing toddler would just stop the pram every 2 mins) which would mean we would have to buy another pram anyway. Also I have a very large and energetic dog and a very big, hilly park opposite the house. We have to walk the dog every day at least once a day, come rain or shine, and I know my now 16 month old (baby due when she'll be 22 months) would not appreciate standing for an hour on a buggy board in the rain! I will get a buggy board for our about town Mclaren (when No2 is older) for shopping trips though.

Kaz - just re-read your bit and see your kind offer. I am in SE London (Brockwell Park) so could come over too.

Cha

No problem - I am based in Earls Court. Please feel free to get my e mail address from tech.

Kaz33

Kiwi Explorer arived last Thursday, so I've had a while to test it (as a single) and can honestly say I love it and would recommend it. My collection charge was only £13.60 so not such a shock.

It is light to move, lift and fold. The front wheel easily switches from swivel to fixed. The back wheels are very easy to remove. There is a wrist strap to stop it running away on hills (also great for the shops when you need to turn your back on it for a second). There is a window in the sun hood that is perfectly placed for keeping an eye on ds. The toddler seat clips in and out very easily and it can be folded with the baby bed still attached. The seat is so nice that ds goes right off to sleep in the space of a minute. I took it out on a very lumpy and in some places vey muddy bridal pathway at the weekend and and as you would expect it shook and rattled all over the place, but ds slept through it all only waking when I parked it up in our hall! I think the reason it is so cosy is that the seat is a hamock like design so absorbs all the violent movment and turns it into a peacefull rocking action.

Initialy I thought that I was not going to like it as there were a few things that I didn't expect or like, but now they have all been resolved.

1. While the web lists the width as 53cm, it forgetts to mention that this is with out the wheels!! It is actually about 62cm but so far have only found one gap I couldn't get through, so it's not a problem.
2. It is only held in the folded position by a press stud which unpops with any pressure. I've now figured out where to hold it to stop this happening.
3. The frame is all quite movable so it takes a while to figure out what amount of force is needed for different activities i.e. curbs, but this was under control after a few days.
4. I had concerns about the fact that there always has to be a child in the front seat if there is one in the back seat and that the older child is the one that has to sit in the front seat because of balance issues. What if the younger one is asleep and the older one wants to play at the park etc. However it seems there are ways round this, they provide a big backpac and clips to attach it to the pushchair, so when attached over the footplate it can balance out a younger child.
5. The zips to recline the child are on the inside of the seat so I had to dig around under ds to reach them and this upset him, so I just added a seat liner and now I hold up the seat liner to easily reach the zips and ds doesn't really seem to notice.

I think that covers everything!! Long I know, but as you can't play before you buy it may help.

Hi all -I've had my explorer for 2.5 years so if I can help.... You are lucky though -my 'old fashioned' one doesn't recline at all. I wasn't sure about this at first, but I can honestly say that in all this time it has never been a problem as the seat is it quite a comfortable angle anyway. and as for baby lifter.. I'm so jealous!

Does it work out any cheaper to go through Kiwi dad than direct with the company?

Willum - the pressure button definitely should not pop out, and you should not have to hold anything together. Mine has not popped out once in all this time, although when it first arrived I had this problem & it was fixed quite simply by bending thelittle metal bar with the hole in that it clips into very gently & slightly. - do you follow what I mean?

Kiwidad did a package inc. pushchair, double kits, mattress, childlifter, dbl rain cover, dbl suncover and p&p for £308 (NZ$825), but that was the last baby blue special, he will do the same package in the other colours for NZ$925.

It was the best price package price I could find he said that it normally retails at about NZ$1250.

The closeing pop stud is on the bottom of the footplate, so sorry I don't know what bar you mean.

ok, I know this is ridiculously early to be window shopping for double buggies, but I'll take advantage while the thread is still relatively live....
All being well, there should be 2 years between ds and no 2. My main need for double transport will be for a brisk 25 min walk to work/nursery once no 2 is around 6 months - sounds like your situation pamina - what did you go with in the end? We also have steps up to the house and on my route to work - will a tandem be hideously heavy to get up and down them? Is the kiwi explorer the best option? (I hope so - they look amazing ) I have a query about the explorer - is it really not possible to have the baby in the back seat if the front is empty? - that would be a problem as I foresee many trips to the park while babe is hopefully sleeping peacefully....
My other 'need' (I use the term loosely!) is at the newborn stage - I would love the new babe to have a proper lie flat pram/pushchair, as I was too stingy to get one for ds. What non-tandem options exist - is the emmaljunga the only pram/lie-flat pushchair which can fit a toddler seat? Obviously I can't have that AND an explorer, although I did think about trying to hunt down a second hand one.

I walk straight from the house a lot and will probably be using the sling/buggy combo a fair bit in the early days - but it would be nice to have a 'proper' pram the babe can sleep in, and I'm not sure the newborn fitting for the explorer will fit that bill. Any views appreciated!!

Willum - you got your explorer through winkalotts, didn't you (AKA kiwi dad)? I am about to order one and am just perhaps being a little paranoid as you can't buy it directly through their website - some guy at Winkalotts called Alan Anderson wants me to phone / fax / email my credit card details to him. Is this what you did?

Kaz - a friend turned out to have a friend with an explorer (the same one I spotted in the park all those months ago) so I got to have a go with one after all. But thanks for the offer!

I would definately not go for a tandem buggy, I had two young in age. The tandem is very heavy, but suppose on what sort you got, I had a little tikes one, and it was really heavy, even with a small baby. I used to find that i put the big one in the back when the little one was older. I would suggest a double, a stroller one maybe be abit less wide.

Hi elliott, it's never too early to drool over pushchairs!

The Kiwi Explorer is great, especially if you do a lot of walking, as for a double it is amazingly light. In the early stages, I doubt it would make any difference if the front seat is occupied or not. Later, when baby gets heavier you can do what I did and a few others have mentioned and strap the rucksack or something else heavy to the footplate.

The baby can lie flat in the new born attachment, but it isn't the same as as pram.

I personally don't like side-bysides as I found the width far too restricting. I also found a double stroller quite difficult to push as the handles were too flexible. but the tandems are undeniably hideously heavy to push. You would not have a spring in your step!

I don't know if you've heard of the make Quinny? Everyone here in Switzerland seems to have them 7 the last time I was in the UK in John Lewis I noticed they started stocking them. Anyway, they are a 3-wheeler that can have a pram attachment, so baby is lying flat & in a proper 'bed' as you've said you want, and later you can put a normal seat on, and I have seen them used with a toddler seat - this might be a lighter to push & easier (& cheaper?) option than the Emmaljunga. Where do you live? Maybe you could order one via JL, or go to France/Switzerland/Germany for hols & get one (cheaper) while you're over - any excuse. Maybe you could fly to Geneva with Suew and come to a Swiss mumsnetter meet up!

I did see a woman yesterday with a double stroller that was the same size as a normal stroller with 2 seats 1 higher & behind, but it was miles smaller than the Kiwi, really just the size of a stroller, with 4 wheels not 3. I tried to nose but couldn't see the make - I'll keep an eye out for her for you!

Monkey, thanks for the info. I've been doing some searches on the web for quinny, they don't seem too hard to track down. However, I can't find any mention of a toddler seat (not even on the manufacturers' site), so I'm stumped on that one. (why DON't more manufacturers make pushchairs with toddler seats, surely its not that hard??)

It does look like the explorer may be the best option (or possibly a side by side twin 3 wheeler) - although looking at the website it weighs about 12kg with the second toddler seat, which is pretty similar to the tandems I've investigated (maybe it feels lighter because its smaller and has better steering??) Mind you, there are enough dire reviews of tandems to put me off for life (unless I can get hold of one for next to nothing for the first 3 months or so).

If you ever catch up with the owner of the 'tandem stroller', for want of a better description, do let me know what it is!!

Cha, no problems. Glad you liked it.

I bought mine from an Australian website - babymall.com.au ( though I did get done for about £70 worth of VAT etc... - not sure why I did and Willums cost much less in VAT). Or you can get it directly from Phil and Ted in NZ. I think on prices they are all pretty similar - just e mail them and see what the best deal you can get is !

Elliott - the other option that does a toddler seat is the Bertini ( check out www.stratfordstrollers.com ) who stock them and the Emmanganulja. I note your concern about the newborn attachment and whether you will feel happy with a new baby in it - unfortunately I am not going to be able to help you with that for another couple of months.

Well, Kaz33, that will still give me six months to make up my mind
It is not that I am worried about the newborn attachment - I'm sure it will be perfectly adequate, its just that having been ultra stingy with ds (I only have a Graco Citisport which he's been in since he was 8 weeks, not exactly a luxury carriage for him!!) I would quite LIKE to have something nicer for no 2.

You have stairs don't you - how do you think the explorer will cope with older baby and toddler up and down them? At the moment I lift ds and citisport up the steps but this is beginning to get tiresome (maybe not as tiresome as any of the double alternatives though....)

oh, another question - can you use a buggy board on the explorer when it is set up as a single??