How do you have sex?

[ordinaryman]

Okay, I know the title will have raised a few eyebrows, but to be clear I'm not looking for a titillation, or a precis of The Joy of Sex. I'm a married middle aged man and I know what goes where physically, so...

As with many on the Relationships forum, I have been trying to give it one more go at bringing-back the intimacy and sex to my marriage, or else I fear we may not be together for many more years. Anyway, I don't want to go over all the details of that again here, so will stick to the point of my question...

In the spirit of getting things going again in the bedroom after a long gap (and precious little action in the years since kids arrived), i thought I'd ask how / when / where people are doing it? My wife and I have the whole 'flat mate' thing going on and it's pretty awkward starting the "why don't we nip up to the bedroom?..." converation, especially where one party (my wife in this case, though I see many women have the same issue with their men) doesn't initiate anything herself, doesn't seem to have much libido and needs some gentle reminders and encouragement that this part of our relationship is important.

So what do you do to get things started? The straight and direct approach, or something more subtle? During the day whilst the kids are at school, or middle of the night? In the bedroom, or happy with the sofa?

Apologies if any of this seems facile or obvious, but I'm anxious neither to pussy-foot around the issue if the honest, direct, here and now is favoured, nor to be too direct, explicit or pushy, if something more sensitive should be the order of the day.

Thoughts?...

I'm glad you're having a good laugh, but I haven't said anywhere that I think sex is separate from the relationship issue...

What I said was, I have discussed the relationship side in the Relationships forum.

This is the SEX forum, so cut me some slack here...

It sounds to me that he has tried flirting, and romancing, and generally being a friend and good companion. However, it also sounds like this might be a bit one sided with maybe less interest and intimacy coming the other way.
I would suggest that there needs to be some direct and clear communication about where things are and where they are going.
I have to say that I am in a similar position but have had discussions about it and have been told very clearly and firmly that my wife has now reached menopause and therefore will not be engaging in any sexual activity ever again. In order to avoid any confusion she therefore does not want me to hug, cuddle, kiss or engage in any activity to might give rise to any expectation of sexual activity.
It's pretty horrific to be confronted with that particularly when to rub it in, you are told that for the last couple of years any sex has been non consensual or at best coerced.
I am still trying to come to terms with the unilateral decision and it's consequences, and to be honest I am still working on the principle of disbelief. I hope to wake up soon to find it was all a bad dream.

But they're intertwined, there's no separation, that's your issue. Compartmentalising doesn't work for many women. The intimacy has to come back first, the relationship.

It's difficult op, because without cross referencing your posts on relationships (ain't nobody got time for that) we are going to be asking questions/making comments that we feel are important to resolving the problem.

What does she say when you say.... Are we ever going to have sex again?

How long has it been BTW?

OP - am going to try to answer your question without getting into the relationship stuff. We have been in a similar mode since birth of DD2 who is now 19 months old. It's either sleep, fatigue, opportunity or timing that's a problem. We also sleep in separate bedrooms which has run down our closeness a bit. But we are intimate in non sexual ways. And if the kids are out of the house, we both are working from home & have no calls (this needs to be planned) then we do make the time & effort to get going. It's happened only a handful of times in the past year, but there has been effort made. On one occasion we didn't have a condom & DH went to the shop & bought one so we wouldn't lose the chance. We do joke about it freely saying 'we need to go back to sex-ed classes as we've forgotten what to do?!' or such. But I do feel that we need to correct this situation before the gap widens any further. I have to say that DH leaves it to me to initiate as he doesn't want to put pressure/be rejected. And I do, but not as often as he'd like me to. Hope this answers your Q in some ways?

@madtam - Yes, been trying the romance et all for years, but hard to keep that going forever when there's no kissing, cuddling, hand-holding, etc. here either. She says she has 'body issues' but I've tried to reassure her (genuinely). Mine says she still wants to have a sex life when I question it from time to time, but I think really atkes the same view as your wife, ie: that boat has sailed: get used to it.
I would be very, very upset by that 'non-consensual' remark. I would definitely be wanting a full explanation of that one...
The unilateral bit is the same for me and very depressing. She's gone back on her marriage vows with no explanation, which I think is every bit as bad as cheating.

@ElectroStallion - Again, I haven't said they're not connected....

@BastardGoDarkly - I'm not expecting everybody to read my Relationship posts. Indeed, I've said that I am on here - the SEX forum - NOT to repeat my relationships issues, but to ask specifically *taking my wife at her word that she does want us to have sex) how other middle aged married couples actually slot it into their lives. Whether it's planned, spontaneous, twice a week, once a fortnight, in the lounge or only in bed, whether you ask directly or have a little 'code' for let's do it yes or no, what has helped reignite the spark - lingerie, literature, a bath together, etc.

.. and it's been zero sex at all for nearly a year and only about 20 times in the preceding 10 years.

@Artistic - it does look like you still have a connection and some kind of mutual desire, which is great. I wish you every luck building it back up.

My kids are at school, my wife is a SAHM and I nip back from work a lot, so the opportunity is certainly there.

I'm firing blanks too, so no pregnancy worries.

You could try going to your gp together, there could be an under lying undiagnosed medical condition?

I hear what your saying OP, you just want practical tips on how to let the opportunity arise. Well here goes...

Yes you could run a bath for you both and a glass of wine?
Does she drink? A glass of wine sometimes helps to relax and not be so conscious of the body issues. A lot of women feel uncomfortable after children so my suggestion would maybe be dim the lights a bit or close the curtains, bright sunshine and flabby bits don't help us feel sexy!

Start small, when you get home give her a kiss, then after a week of doing that kiss and a cuddle, (they say a cuddle should last 6 seconds to release oxytocin or something like that)

Offer a footrub, do you sit next to each other on the sofa? How does she like to be touched head rub/back rub?

Compliment her, you smell nice/hair looks nice etc, but DONT be fake, really look at her, notice her.

Laughter is very sexy too, can you make her crack up laughing? Can you play fight/mess around and be playful with her?

OP I'm sorry but if she doesn't want sex, yes it will be a unilateral decision and no you don't have any input. Anything else would suggest that you could make a compromise and that means she would have sex even though she doesn't want to. Quite a horrible thing to think about.
(And I have been there too so I can tell you it IS horrible)

However, there is a big difference between actejationshipsith no or little sex and a relationship with no intimacy.
What strikes me is that she is refusing intimacy as well. Of she is at that point, imo your relationship has broken down a long time ago.
I'm especially puzzled by the 'I would like sex life too'. How is that possible if she is refusing intimacy in the first place (eg cuddles, touch, sharing feelings etc)?
That makes me wonder if she is happy on the situation a test and why she isn't leaving.

Re the wows of marriage. I don't know about you but my woes have never been about having sex. They are about cherishing each other (aka intimacy, respect etc) not about sex..,,

It's basically if we go to bed at the same time we'll cuddle up which often leads to stroking and then on from there. Or in the morning at the weekens, same sort of thing. Just being naked and cuddling up starts things off. That's the routine stuff. If kids are away or we are it could be anytime.

For us it's always in bed, just before we go to sleep. We used to be morning people, but the DC are early risers so we had to adapt!

We've been together 19 years. We did go through a dry patch when the DC were tiny.

@RockMeMomma "- You could try going to your gp together, there could be an under lying undiagnosed medical condition?"

Yes, that did occur to me. I would be up for that.

I also suggested some kind of counselling or sex therapist. The trouble is, she sees the former as a step on the road to divorce and the latter as some kind of... well, I'm not sure what, but she certainly wasn't keen!

@Mrstumbletap

Yes, I've tried suggesting baths together, or cuddles in bed, but nightimes she just wants to sleep and during the day she just sees any suggestion we might do anything romantic / loving / sexy as just being plain weird.

She doesn't drink anything these days (not out of principal, she just doesn't), which does rule that out for softening the mood.

Unfortunately, she shrinks away from cuddles and hugs.

She makes out that I suggest she's fat, but I really don't and make a point of saying so, but I think it's a kind of defence mechanism to blame her own worries on me. I persist though.

The idea of keeping it under the covers / darkened room / etc. is a good point re. the above. Like most men (and maybe some women?) I very much like to see my mife in all her glory, but you are right in that she would probably prefer not. I could live with that.

@HappyNevertheless - "OP I'm sorry but if she doesn't want sex, yes it will be a unilateral decision and no you don't have any input. Anything else would suggest that you could make a compromise and that means she would have sex even though she doesn't want to. Quite a horrible thing to think about.
(And I have been there too so I can tell you it IS horrible)

However, there is a big difference between actejationshipsith no or little sex and a relationship with no intimacy.
What strikes me is that she is refusing intimacy as well. Of she is at that point, imo your relationship has broken down a long time ago.
I'm especially puzzled by the 'I would like sex life too'. How is that possible if she is refusing intimacy in the first place (eg cuddles, touch, sharing feelings etc)?
That makes me wonder if she is happy on the situation a test and why she isn't leaving.

Re the wows of marriage. I don't know about you but my woes have never been about having sex. They are about cherishing each other (aka intimacy, respect etc) not about sex..,,

I disagree that I don't get any input. If she no longer wants sex, that is her right and I would naturally have to accept that, but she can't expect things to carry on as normal

The lack of intimacy, yet saying she wants a sex life puzzles me too, but I'm worried that the truth is, she doesn't. She just feels she ought to want me, but doesn't.

Re. vows - well, I guess it depends on your own interpretation, but "to have and to hold" and various references to knowing each bodily are widley considered to be direct reference to sex. I didn't get married just to have sex, obviously, but I did and do consider it part of a marriage, unless pre-agreed beforehand. Let's look at it the other way around then - if I were to go off and have sex with someone else, I'm sure my protestations that marriage 'isn't really about having sex' wouldn't be regarded as much of a defence.

What does she do all day?

She can't be that tired being a sahm with school aged kids.

Is she near the menopause?

Could she be having an affair?

I don't think she ever wants to have sex with you again. So the question isn't how do you fix her but will you stay in a sexless marriage, find sex elsewhere or leave? Those are your options.

@0hCrepe - "It's basically if we go to bed at the same time we'll cuddle up which often leads to stroking and then on from there. Or in the morning at the weekens, same sort of thing. Just being naked and cuddling up starts things off. That's the routine stuff. If kids are away or we are it could be anytime."

Great ideas and ones I have tried, but alas, she usually goes to bed a good hour before me and would not be interested if I did go up to, as she 'wants to get a good night's sleep ready to get the kids up in the morning'. Likewise, during the night...

Weekend mornings, she will still rise at ~7am, even if the kids aren't yet awake. I have spoken to her about it, to suggest a) perhaps she could remain in bed with me at least until they are awake, or b) that now they are of a suitable age (9 and 12) that we should encourage them to get themselves up and go watch TV or play, whilst mum and dad have a 'lie in'.

I sleep only in shorts, but she wears woolly pyjamas, knickers and socks. Again, I've tried to encourage her to swap to a nighty and lose the knickers, but no dice...

@Lightbulbon - "What does she do all day?

She can't be that tired being a sahm with school aged kids.

Is she near the menopause?

Could she be having an affair?

I don't think she ever wants to have sex with you again. So the question isn't how do you fix her but will you stay in a sexless marriage, find sex elsewhere or leave? Those are your options."

She does housework and shopping and deals with most of the kids needs. She is certainly not lazy and I value her work at home against my professional work.

But you are right; once the kids are at school, there are six clear hours each day. Even with some housework thrown in, there is plenty of room for the odd hour's 'snuggle', as I have pointed out to her.

She may be near the menopause, but a) it's not like her libido has suddenly started to drop off, b) she won't go to the GP if she really does think it's starting and c) none of this explains the lack of cuddling, kissing, etc.

No affair. She genuinely doesn't seem interested in sex and / or intimacy anymore.

I totally agree with your assesment of my options. They are my conclusion. What I'm doing as a last resort is taking her at her word the she does want sex with me and trying to expose it for truth or lies once and for all. Than we can both be honest and decide.

My DH is the same as your wife. We find that scheduling sex does work. Like you say, it's very unromantic, but it also removes the fear of rejection for me (I am so fed up with being rejected) and it means that at other times he can relax into a cuddle knowing that I'm not going to suddenly demand sex. He has always found sex a bit embarrassing so it's very much in bed under the covers when there is absolutely no chance of interruption. I lock the bedroom door because that makes him feel more relaxed.

It sucks doesn't it?

@Clever...

That's interesting to know.

Scheduling is unromantic, but I too see the benefits as both people being forewarned (God, that makes it sound terrible doesn't it ) and avoiding rejection, And you're right, it might very well help improve the lack of intimacy if she doesn't then feel cuddle=sex each time I try for a hug / kiss.

When I mentioned it to her in the past, I said that making time for sex was much like a meal, in that it was a necessary and enjoyable part of sustaining our happy and healthy existence, and that time is always set aside for a meal, whether or not you're actually starving hungry each time you have it.

I'm also a believer in the idea that with sex, the more you do it the more you want it. I think your 'bits' can just basically go to sleep with lack of use, where as keeping things in practical working order is likely to lead to more use. I also watched aYoutube vide (this one, I think on sexless marriage, where the presenter said sometimes people just need to be reminded how much they actually enjoy it.

Yes, it does suck. It's a very lonely place. It makes you feel undesirable, unwanted and unloved.

I wasn't saying how we tend to do it as a solution for you, it's just how we generally end up doing it. Although what would happen if you went up to bed 5 minutes after her and got in and spooned and said just a cuddle and meant it?

I think your wife saying she would like intimacy back or whatever is bullshit to be honest, probably to avoid confrontation. Actions speak louder than words and the reality is she doesn't want to have sex.

My view is that you should be free to express your sexuality (in any legal and safe way) and if your DW does not want to participate or help you, you should feel free to seek sexual contentment elsewhere - be it masturbation, porn, no-strings-attached fuck buddy (Tinder or other) or dare ,I say pay-as-you-go (yes sex workers). You can do this in private without her knowing and keep your family life sound. You only get one life and sexuality is as important as enjoying good food and having a sense of humour - go for it and carefully satisfy your desires. I will PM you with my experience and advice.

She doesn't want to have sex. The question is whether it's because she no longer fancies you or because she no longer fancies sex (with anyone). The latter could be temporary, the former probably not.

Body issues could mean that she feels too disgusting to even be touched. She might think you only want sex with her because you have no other choice and are lying about her being attractive to you. I wonder if she could do with counselling herself? Alternatively, she could be finding you (as well as herself, possibly) unattractive, and doesn't want to hurt you as she values the relationship for what it is (deep friendship and parenting partnership) and doesn't want to divorce.