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Secondary education

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history teachers over here please- long, sorry

70 replies

cory · 26/02/2009 16:18

This may seem over-precious, but I am a little sorry for dd, who has always had history as one of her main interests but is getting very fed up with the way it is taught in Year 7. This is the only subject that doesn't seem to be taught in a serious way. They are doing the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Her complaints so far are:

much (not to say most) of the factual information given is quite simply incorrect. She brings back some new wild statement from her teacher virtually every week. They are not encouraged to question the teacher, so dd has to decide whether to lose marks by writing down what she knows is right or learn what is incorrect (and both dd and I have read enough to tell the difference)

in other subjects (geography, science etc) they are taught out of serious textbooks; in history, the main textbook is Horrible Histories. Noone has told the students that this is in fact a joke book. It is treated as a proper textbook.

you don't need to be a professional historian to understand that medieval monasticism taught out of Horrible Histories is hardly going to give you a very accurate idea of what life was actually like in monastic communities.

their latest project was to write a short essay on how medicine and witchcraft had changed between 1066 and 1450. For this, they were told that they had to use the sources provided by the teacher.

for the witchcraft part of the project, all the sources provided were very evidently from the great witchhunts of the 17th century (extract from King James's Daemonologie, print of witch hanging from 1589, print of ducking-stool from 1600s).

There is obviously no way these sources can be used to show changes between 1066 and 1450, or indeed anything about 1450. I suggested dd should do it using contemporary sources, but she says she is fed up with losing marks because she does extra work and adds more sources- apparently you get marks docked if you don't use the teacher's sources.

I told her to go and speak to the teacher, but she came back reporting that the class is going to be taken by a trainee teacher until after Easter and that she will be marking the project. The trainee teacher seems to know even less about history than her current teacher.

The latest task has just been announced: they are going to work in class to decide Who was the most Terrible Tudor.

No point in complaining or trying to get dd into a different set btw; the history teacher is head of humanities so sets the history work for all the year.

Is this the norm in history teaching? I thought history was considered quite a serious, heavy subject. They are not taught geography by being encouraged to laugh at funny foreign people and in French they are taught the proper irregular verbs, not some jokey made-up gobbledygook, so why should history be treated differently?

As somebody who may well be seeing these students in my university class I am not that happy. Otherwise a very good school, I just don't want to see their students in the history department in years to come.

But more to the point- what do you think dd should do? Keep her head down? Pretend that it is possible to say something about attitudes towards witchcraft in the 11th-15th century by studying a document from 1597? Pretend that she does believe that a print could be from early 15th century England just because the teacher says so (printing? William Caxton?)? Accept that history is about giggling about how terribly stupid people were in the past (NOOO).

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choosyfloosy · 26/02/2009 16:24

Oh

My

Godfathers.

Every word you have written fills me with horror.

I think she should do the work she is capable of doing, with all the 'extra' sources, and that you should find an external history tutor to mark it for her (clearly you would be capable of doing this, but for independent input), so that she can get some proper feedback, even if she does get docked marks in class.

And I should send the two differently marked versions to the Head and the Governor for History and ask for a meeting with them.

NewTeacher · 26/02/2009 16:34

She's in Year 7 they are trying to make the subject fun!

choosyfloosy · 26/02/2009 16:35

NewTeacher in what way is it 'fun' to have marks docked for doing extra work?

cory · 26/02/2009 16:37

Well, it isn't fun, when you're given a task that is simply impossible. Use this document from 1597 to prove changes between 1066 to 1450- how could that be fun? It can only lead to frustration and unhappiness because it's an impossible task. And then to know that the more history you actually know, the more marks you will lose.

I notice that the maths teacher does not try to make the subject more entertaining by asking them to prove that 2 + 2 make 5.

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NewTeacher · 26/02/2009 16:39

If she has been asked to work from the teachers notes then she should.

If the teacher is docking marks for extra work (thats a bit mean!)Or maybe teacher thinks someone else is doing her homework!

If you feel so strongly about it why not make an appt and speak to the history teacher.

LauriefairycakeeatsCupid · 26/02/2009 16:42

her history teachers is head of humanities and that's the work being set

omfg

I'm going to get dh to look over your problem when he comes in as he is head of humanities at a good secondary school

cory · 26/02/2009 16:43

But how can you work from the teacher's notes in the present instance? The sources have nothing to do with the period she is supposed to be writing about. It is like giving them Anne Frank's diary and telling them to use that to find about conditions at the time of the French revolution.

Marks get docked if you do not limit yourself to the teacher's sources. Unfortunately, in this case the teacher's sources cannot be used to answer the question.

How would you work from the sources I described, New Teacher, to answer the question I described?

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NewTeacher · 26/02/2009 16:47

I have no clue about history (I'm an ICT teacher)and wouldnt be able to do the homework full stop. So I dont know if the sources provided are relevant or not unfortunately.

You are obviously very unhappy about this and I do feel you should speak to the teacher involved. Show them the homework set and ask them how they think it should be completed if the sources provided do not have anyhting to do with the question set.

Chaotica · 26/02/2009 16:48

I'd do what choosyfloosy says, then go to see history teacher, then go to see head teacher if no joy with previous steps. Then go to see governors too.

(My DCs aren't even in school yet and it's going to be so hard not to be the most embarrassing parent going.)

choosyfloosy · 26/02/2009 16:48

New Teacher, i don't want to turn on you, you are clearly doing your best to demonstrate the positive side to this situation, and that's good.

But I don't understand why it's a good thing to ask children to write an essay (of whatever length) and then tell them 'stick to these notes/sources only or risk losing marks' (leaving aside the fact that the sources they have been offered in this case are irrelevant ).

Surely this is a task that easily allows able children to do lots more work, really learn and enjoy themselves? Setting particular sources makes sense as guidance for the less confident or less able, and gives an idea of how much work the teacher expects the children to do. But if a child is capable of doing more, why on earth restrict them from doing so? I don't get it!

ellingwoman · 26/02/2009 16:51

This sounds like bottom set teaching. Has your dd been put in the wrong set by mistake?

atowncalledalice · 26/02/2009 16:58

Choosyfloosy and Chaotica's suggestions sound like a good idea to me. It seems as though your dd is bright and well read - the school should be encouraging her to excel, not dragging her down!

Libra · 26/02/2009 17:01

It sounds appalling.
You do need to talk to the teacher, and if you have no joy there you need to talk to her manager.

The essay title itself sounds very ambitious (and why medicine AND witchcraft?), but the sources they are to use are ridiculous (speaks as one with Masters in Medieval Studies)

Threadworm · 26/02/2009 17:06

Oh God Cory, that sounds awful. It is depressing how dumbed down secondary education seems to be.

I think you need to talk to the teacher, but I don't envy you. I would be awful at it. I would say go over his head, but if he is head of humanities that will be difficult.

bagsforlife · 26/02/2009 17:19

I presume history isn't considered a 'heavy' subject until it is taken as a GCSE. I imagine it is just generalised 'fun' history they are doing in Year 7 (hence the Horrible History book). I would think the school is not used to pupils taking it so seriously as your DD, rightly or wrongly.

Either way, that doesn't excuse the source being from the wrong period. It will be interesting to hear what the poster whose DH is Head of Humanities at a good secondary school has to say.

CaptainKarvol · 26/02/2009 17:20

This really horrifies me.

I'm not a teacher, but my dad was a history teacher (and a head of humanities) until retirement 3-4 years ago.

He taught history of medicine, and witchcraft, amongst other things and would never in a million years have done anything like you describe.

I thought the POINT of history as it is taught now was about identifying reliable sources, evaluating your evidence, making rational deductions.

Please go and see the school.

neolara · 26/02/2009 17:20

I used to be a history teacher about a million years ago.

Using horrible history books as text books is not standard I would say. I think there probably is no harm using them occasionally, but I would definitely say it was inappropriate for them to be the only book being used.

Factual inaccuracies are not good.

There used to be, and I assume there still is, a lot in the history syllabus about learning about reliability of source material. Is there a possibility that your dd has been asked to use 17th century sources because part of the exercise is to understand how useful, or not, these could be. Maybe she is being asked to look at a 17th century understanding of medieval witchcraft? If so, I think this could be a valid exercise. The fact that the sources are written / drawn a few centuries later, could and should generate a very interesting discussion in the classroom about what can and can't be belived.

Extracting information from original sources also used to be part of the curriculum, so it is possible that your dd is being encouraged to only use particular sources to make sure she thoroughly examines the ones she has.

It might be a good idea to talk to the teacher to discuss your concerns. Be gentle if you talk to the student though! He / she will probably be terrified of meeting a parent.

ZZZen · 26/02/2009 17:21

oh boy

I am a medieval historian cory and I taught at university (not in schools though so I am not an expert on this particular set-up). I have always done a lot of history at home with dd because it interests me (obvously) and she picked up on that and loves it too. I have to say I would NEVER use anything as dumbed down as the HH with her (and she is year 3 not year 7). She manages with no difficulty to work with more substantial material and so would every dc in your dd's class surely. As supplementary material ok if the dc like it, but not as main textbook surely?

I had very good history teachers at school back in the old days and no, we were not taught in this way and we never had our work downgraded for going beyond the recommended reading. I'm afraid this sounds like laziness on the part of the teacher to me or perhaps a certain insecurity with the topics. (Sounds like she just wants work that reflects what she happens to have read up on herself).

I would want to raise my concerns about the inaccuracies you have mentioned although I am never too sure what is the best way of doing this kind of thing.

cory · 26/02/2009 17:48

ellingwoman, it is supposed to be one of the two top sets

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cory · 26/02/2009 17:55

I think you are doing great at trying to see the positives, Neolara. Unfortunately, the 17th century sources are not 16th/17th century writers commenting on medieval witches; they are very clearly about events taking place in the 17th century. One is the hanging of (I think) the Pendle witches. The great witch hunts (as some of you may know) didn't really get going until after 1450; the teacher seems completely unaware of this. She also doesn't seem to have noticed that the England of the 1590s is a totally different country as to religion, attitudes towards authority etc etc.

I am also at the fact that she has labelled the picture of the ducking stool as from the 1400s. It clearly cannot be from the period pre-1450 as printing had not then been introduced into England, the print itself is clearly not late-15th century either, the people in it are all wearing 17th century clothing, if you google ducking-stools this is the first picture that comes up (with the correct date!) and it is stated clearly that it probably depicts the ducking of a scold anyway, so has nothing to do with witches.

From the teacher's paraphrasing of one of the texts, it is clear she has used the first wikipedia articles that come up if you google witchcraft (as dd did), but she doesn't seem to be able to read them correctly.

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cory · 26/02/2009 17:58

I think everybody's suggestion about going in to see her is probably the right one- but how do I get this right? I don't want to wind her up or make the poor trainee teacher really unhappy. I don't want the school to think I am not happy with them in general (they have been very supportive of dd's disability). And I am aware that as a professional historian I can easily get carried away.

So how do I do this in a thoroughly nice and and fluffy way?

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cory · 26/02/2009 17:59

"they are very clearly about events taking place in the 17th century"

sorry, should have been 16th/17th century

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weaselboy · 26/02/2009 17:59

I used to be a history teacher years ago.
I think the development of "Humanties" is a bad thing generally and this teacher does not sound like a History specialist.

I am suprised she is using horrible histories - there are loads of good text books.

Am suprised she is making her write an essay tbh and that she si even doing this subject.

cory · 26/02/2009 18:08

well, essay is possibly an exaggeration; it was a short writing task set as homework

They also do three projects a year. I am very happy with the idea of her doing this. I just don't want her to lose heart.

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donnie · 26/02/2009 18:15

it sounds to me as though the teacher is not very knowledgeable in his/her field which is not a good thing, plus the attitide to limiting the sources and frames of reference used is lazy and dismissive. HHs are a joke text - not a serious school text.

As a secondary school teacher (Eng Lit in my case) I am absolutely scrupulous in ensuring I have a thorough and detailed knowledge of all my texts /schemes of work etc; sounds like this person is not.

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