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Secondary education

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history teachers over here please- long, sorry

70 replies

cory · 26/02/2009 16:18

This may seem over-precious, but I am a little sorry for dd, who has always had history as one of her main interests but is getting very fed up with the way it is taught in Year 7. This is the only subject that doesn't seem to be taught in a serious way. They are doing the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Her complaints so far are:

much (not to say most) of the factual information given is quite simply incorrect. She brings back some new wild statement from her teacher virtually every week. They are not encouraged to question the teacher, so dd has to decide whether to lose marks by writing down what she knows is right or learn what is incorrect (and both dd and I have read enough to tell the difference)

in other subjects (geography, science etc) they are taught out of serious textbooks; in history, the main textbook is Horrible Histories. Noone has told the students that this is in fact a joke book. It is treated as a proper textbook.

you don't need to be a professional historian to understand that medieval monasticism taught out of Horrible Histories is hardly going to give you a very accurate idea of what life was actually like in monastic communities.

their latest project was to write a short essay on how medicine and witchcraft had changed between 1066 and 1450. For this, they were told that they had to use the sources provided by the teacher.

for the witchcraft part of the project, all the sources provided were very evidently from the great witchhunts of the 17th century (extract from King James's Daemonologie, print of witch hanging from 1589, print of ducking-stool from 1600s).

There is obviously no way these sources can be used to show changes between 1066 and 1450, or indeed anything about 1450. I suggested dd should do it using contemporary sources, but she says she is fed up with losing marks because she does extra work and adds more sources- apparently you get marks docked if you don't use the teacher's sources.

I told her to go and speak to the teacher, but she came back reporting that the class is going to be taken by a trainee teacher until after Easter and that she will be marking the project. The trainee teacher seems to know even less about history than her current teacher.

The latest task has just been announced: they are going to work in class to decide Who was the most Terrible Tudor.

No point in complaining or trying to get dd into a different set btw; the history teacher is head of humanities so sets the history work for all the year.

Is this the norm in history teaching? I thought history was considered quite a serious, heavy subject. They are not taught geography by being encouraged to laugh at funny foreign people and in French they are taught the proper irregular verbs, not some jokey made-up gobbledygook, so why should history be treated differently?

As somebody who may well be seeing these students in my university class I am not that happy. Otherwise a very good school, I just don't want to see their students in the history department in years to come.

But more to the point- what do you think dd should do? Keep her head down? Pretend that it is possible to say something about attitudes towards witchcraft in the 11th-15th century by studying a document from 1597? Pretend that she does believe that a print could be from early 15th century England just because the teacher says so (printing? William Caxton?)? Accept that history is about giggling about how terribly stupid people were in the past (NOOO).

OP posts:
edam · 27/02/2009 10:40

Blimey, this is appalling! I think bloss's advice is excellent.

senua · 27/02/2009 10:43

The other, softy approach is to start by asking the teacher/HoD about her rationale. If History is taught in this strange way but Geog is taught in standard textbook & facts way, then why? Why have different methods within the same Humanities department? Get her to justify herself.

PS. And please tell her that any fule kno that the textbook for History is 1066 and All That.

cory · 27/02/2009 10:50

lol at senua. I don't think I'd have minded 1066 and All That so much.

I have to make an appointment to see the teacher and don't even know if she is available at the moment. Would a letter/note be too harsh?

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Molesworth · 27/02/2009 11:01

How appalling. Would it be possible to make an appointment to see the teacher in question and question her in a more open way about what's being taught, how and why? Hear her out and then raise your objections?

In the meantime I certainly wouldn't encourage dd to dumb her work down.

twinmam · 27/02/2009 11:20

Cory, I was both a History teacher and a Head of Humanities and have been pretty horrified with what I've read so far. Am trying my hardest to find some positives in favour of this teacher but blimey ! Am thinking possibly stressed non-specialist (?) who is trying to make things more interesting and simplify things to a Y7 level...?!! Clearly this person is only succeeding in dumbing it down and switching your dd off from a subject that is fascinating in its own right which is really sad. Re the sources task am thinking that it was poss assessed on use of those particular sources so extra research wouldn't be counted in the assessment.... but then to have used inaccurate sources - oh dear!! Maybe the 'correct' way of addressing this task was to explain how the sources were not useful ie only gave a snapshot of one time period so could tell us X and Y but not Z. Even if this was the case the fact that your dd missed the point and spent all that time doing extra research, bless her, suggests this teacher is pretty rubbish - hardly encouraging students or making things clear to them! Was an assessment criteria given out with the task? I can understand what a difficult situation is and think it does need to be addressed. I think that if I was in this teacher's position (I sincerely hope I never was) I would want the matter to be dealt with in this way: a letter, explaining the issues in as straightforward but kind a manner as possible asking for a meeting to discuss the matter. This way the teacher is forewarned and poss less likely to be defensive/ taken aback maybe opening the way for a constructive chat. That way you also have a copy of the letter if things are not resolved and you need to take it further. If that is the case I would then go to the Head rather than governors. Good luck Cory - am dreading the day when my DDs go to secondary school for fear of being branded an interfering parent. From a hist teacher's p.o.v I think your concerns are totally valid.

LadyGlencoraPalliser · 27/02/2009 12:42

I asked my Y7 DD last night what they are doing for their medieval topic this term. She said they are about to write an essay on life in a medieval village. She was a bit vague about the sources they are using - booklets, she said - but Horrible Histories was definitely not one of them.
From what I saw of last term's work they covered the period from Aethelred to the Norman Conquest in a fairly detailed way. The teacher has also given them a list of suitable historical novels to read - I noticed The Woolpack by Cynthia Hartnett was one.
I will say though that DD is lucky in having a history specialist as her teacher this year - many of the other Y7 classes are taught by other members of the humanities department and I fear this is a growing trend.

PrimulaVeris · 27/02/2009 12:59

I'm also a historian and I'm shocked. Horrible Histories are for fun outside the curriculum at primary level, not a Y7 textbook.

My dd is in Y8 - when she did medieval last year it was from a 'proper' textbook, proper analysis of sources. I was pretty impressed. The teaching your dd is getting here is NOT acceptable.

Having said that I'm not a confront-the-teacher specialist. I suppose the first step is to meet the teacher, discuss. IF you are still not satisfied (and I have to say I don't know what justification she has for using HH), then it's formal letter to the head.

lljkk · 27/02/2009 13:29

Whatever you do, Cory, document it. Keep records of each relevant conversation (date, statements, outcomes) and paper copies of any communication. You're more likely to keep your cool, not act hastily if they give you a poor response. AND it will be easier to fend off personal attacks if it goes that way.

Constantlycooking · 28/02/2009 09:24

This sounds awful! Your poor DD having to cope with this it must be frustrating for both of you. i am a complete wimp in confrontations and would probably go in very softly softly. As the teacher is absent you could approach the head IMO without looking too aggressive. I think I would prob say something like DD really loves history and likes doing extra reading around the topics. You could then add that DD finds the HH books a little too simplistic and wants something more detailed and would it be possible for her to use these extra resources in her homework if she lists them at the end so the teacher can see that they are reliable . Personally I complained in y5 that the HH were so simplistic as to be misleading - history is interesting without taking a "gross out" approach - I think I said something like they were fun but I was worried that DS would take them too seriously (actually I meant that I was worried the teacher was!) Hopefully if you alert the head without being confrontational, s/he can tackle the teacher and find out more and will not have to go into automatic defence mode. HTH. Please ignore if you are not a wimp!

twinsetandpearls · 28/02/2009 12:35

Have not read the whole thread as I am supposed to be doing research for my year 7 history class.

I assumed at the start of the thread that your daughter have a humanities teacher who is not a history specialist. I am in a similar situation, we teach humanities but am an RE specialist. I teach the top set/grammar stream so take it very seriously and spend a lot of time researching and reading around before teaching anything out of my specialism. I am very open with the children and say if I do not know something and always find out before the next lesson and ask them to try and find out as well. I encourage them to ask me questions, do extra work, the teacher in the OP sounds out of her depth and very defensive.

I do set essay tasks as this is a top set, but again encourage them to use their own research, sources as long as they are accreditied.

I suspect there is an element of trying to make the subject fun but you can do this without dumbing down. I may get a horrible history out very occasionally , have not done so so far, but would not rely on them.

The thing that confuses me is that you say she is the head of department so she should be a subject specialist. Is she the head if history or head of humanities. We have head of history, geography, RE and a head of humanities.

I do think you need to go in and say something.

thinkingaboutdrinking · 28/02/2009 13:51

I would say go to the head - it's possible that the head suspects problems with this teacher but has no proof/ evidence/ has not had enough complaints. You raising this issue might in some ways enable the head to act, possibly by invoving governors.
Hopefully the trainee teacher will be better for your DD and she will be more encouraged in history later this term. (and given more accurate sources!)
And I agree with Twinset - IME when teachers are teaching outside their sepcialist area they tend to ( and should) do more research and checking before teaching the lesson. even if history is not this teacher's specialism that is no excuse.

twinsetandpearls · 28/02/2009 17:26

I have been thinking about this, I think you need to go to the head as you cannot go to the HOD as this is the person in question. If this is a good school they will be horrified at sub standard teaching. It may be as thinking about says that they have suspicions and are waiting for evidence or building a profile. Or the head does not know that in your school humanities is not working. He/she needs to know and will want to know. The teacher is either slacking - and this needs addressing or is out of her depth and therefore needs to stop suffering in silence and get support.

cory · 01/03/2009 12:57

Thanks to everybody; I was wondering if it was only me being a fusspot. I think what I will do is to make an appointment to see the head of year.

OP posts:
StewieGriffinsMom · 04/03/2009 18:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

cory · 04/03/2009 18:20

Well, I rang the school today and asked for an appointment to see the head of year. She is going to get back to me.

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ruddynorah · 04/03/2009 18:39

history is basically about analysing text/sources isn't it? so if i was your dd i'd just do that. so explain why the sources provided do not answer the question set. in a concluding paragraph make suggestions for what texts would have been useful in answering the question. job done.

and you go and have a conversation with the head/teacher/whoever.

cory · 04/03/2009 18:50

She's done the task now. Of course Ruddynorah's approach would have been best; I suggested something similar, but dd muttered that she is fed up with getting marks knocked off for failing to use the teacher's sources.

In the end she wrote something like: Some witch beliefs were the same in King James' time as earlier in the Middle Ages (listed the beliefs illustrated by teacher's sources, with source references). However, some things were also different in the Middle Ages (lists differences between early M.A. and later M.A.).

The work was marked by the trainee teacher, dd got a fairly high mark (for a "good survey", apparently), but her friend whom she told of the anachronisms, but who preferred to keep her head down and ignore them "because you'll get into so much trouble", got the top mark. Dishonesty pays.

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madlentileater · 04/03/2009 18:58

how depressing (the top marks bit)
but don't think too badly of the trainee teacher, they are in an akward position re fitting into the school.

cory · 04/03/2009 19:16

Yes, I know what you mean madlentileater; poor trainee teacher obviously can't let on if she does understand that dd is ever so subtly criticising her superior.

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ZZZen · 06/03/2009 18:25

good luck cory. I think after raising your concerns and discussing those, my main aim would be to persuade the head to adopt a more serious textbook that even non specialist teachers could work with by adhering more strictly to it than trained history teachers would have to do.

Could you go armed with a few suggestions?

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