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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

history teachers over here please- long, sorry

70 replies

cory · 26/02/2009 16:18

This may seem over-precious, but I am a little sorry for dd, who has always had history as one of her main interests but is getting very fed up with the way it is taught in Year 7. This is the only subject that doesn't seem to be taught in a serious way. They are doing the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Her complaints so far are:

much (not to say most) of the factual information given is quite simply incorrect. She brings back some new wild statement from her teacher virtually every week. They are not encouraged to question the teacher, so dd has to decide whether to lose marks by writing down what she knows is right or learn what is incorrect (and both dd and I have read enough to tell the difference)

in other subjects (geography, science etc) they are taught out of serious textbooks; in history, the main textbook is Horrible Histories. Noone has told the students that this is in fact a joke book. It is treated as a proper textbook.

you don't need to be a professional historian to understand that medieval monasticism taught out of Horrible Histories is hardly going to give you a very accurate idea of what life was actually like in monastic communities.

their latest project was to write a short essay on how medicine and witchcraft had changed between 1066 and 1450. For this, they were told that they had to use the sources provided by the teacher.

for the witchcraft part of the project, all the sources provided were very evidently from the great witchhunts of the 17th century (extract from King James's Daemonologie, print of witch hanging from 1589, print of ducking-stool from 1600s).

There is obviously no way these sources can be used to show changes between 1066 and 1450, or indeed anything about 1450. I suggested dd should do it using contemporary sources, but she says she is fed up with losing marks because she does extra work and adds more sources- apparently you get marks docked if you don't use the teacher's sources.

I told her to go and speak to the teacher, but she came back reporting that the class is going to be taken by a trainee teacher until after Easter and that she will be marking the project. The trainee teacher seems to know even less about history than her current teacher.

The latest task has just been announced: they are going to work in class to decide Who was the most Terrible Tudor.

No point in complaining or trying to get dd into a different set btw; the history teacher is head of humanities so sets the history work for all the year.

Is this the norm in history teaching? I thought history was considered quite a serious, heavy subject. They are not taught geography by being encouraged to laugh at funny foreign people and in French they are taught the proper irregular verbs, not some jokey made-up gobbledygook, so why should history be treated differently?

As somebody who may well be seeing these students in my university class I am not that happy. Otherwise a very good school, I just don't want to see their students in the history department in years to come.

But more to the point- what do you think dd should do? Keep her head down? Pretend that it is possible to say something about attitudes towards witchcraft in the 11th-15th century by studying a document from 1597? Pretend that she does believe that a print could be from early 15th century England just because the teacher says so (printing? William Caxton?)? Accept that history is about giggling about how terribly stupid people were in the past (NOOO).

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donnie · 26/02/2009 18:16

sorry, meant also to say that you should seek a meeting with the teacher; try to keep it friendly though.

donnie · 26/02/2009 18:17

and any complete faith in Wikepedia as gospel is just plain dumb!

cory · 26/02/2009 18:20

How would you start this friendly meeting, donnie? I really don't want to go in and mess up or start ranting or anything. What would be a good opening line?

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weaselboy · 26/02/2009 18:21

say what you said in the OP

StewieGriffinsMom · 26/02/2009 18:28

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donnie · 26/02/2009 18:28

yes, just repeat your points in the OP - say 'I wanted to ask about the use of the HH books - I don't feel they offer a very sound or accurate historical overview of such and such a period and dd is upset that she isn't able to research tho topic more widely. Should I be concerned about this?'

or something!

cory · 26/02/2009 18:29

Don't you think it comes across as too aggressive, Weaselboy? Ranting's fine on MN, but will it do for RL?

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SuperMario · 26/02/2009 18:30

and you never know how the kid has interpreted what the teacher intended to happen
i.e that the area " hwere Turkey is now" was involved in ww1

or maybe the Horrible Histories were being analysed as a source.

So do bear in mind kids do ahem.. get things wrong.

StewieGriffinsMom · 26/02/2009 18:35

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SuperMario · 26/02/2009 18:36

how odd

choosyfloosy · 26/02/2009 18:37

Cory, I do think it comes across as too aggressive, I think you're absolutely right.

I've never yet had to tackle a teacher about anything, so am a bad person to advise- your thread title is right, you need some teachers on here.

i actually think I would go over the teachers' head to the History Governor (is there a governor per subject in secondary school, as there is in primary?) as this allows you to talk it through with them. but this is probably wrong.

Could you talk to the teacher on the basis of 'I'm wondering if any other textbooks are likely to be used in class, as dd came out with X the other day from Horrid Histories, and of course that's a jokey exaggeration? It does worry me a bit that she will pick this sort of stuff up as gospel?' Would that work?

As far as this little written piece goes, I think just ignore the sources given, and make/let dd do some proper research. Is this perhaps a good lesson in working to your own standards, not to anyone else's? Maybe getting an external marker is too manipulative and not supportive of the teacher; little though I think she deserves support in this situation, she is still the teacher.

I would be so about this situation because i actually do know a little history - I would start to doubt everything the children were taught tbh.

StewieGriffinsMom · 26/02/2009 18:40

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cory · 26/02/2009 18:42

Supermario, both the teacher's sources and the task were given out as handouts: I have seen them with my own eyes. Black on white, not an illusion of my dd's.

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vonsudenfed · 26/02/2009 19:32

I'm not a history teacher, but am absolutely, jaw-droppingly horrified at this. If it was me, I think I would have phoned every member of the governing body of the school by now, and then regretted it deeply. So that's not much help.

What kind of school is it - and is this approach typical of what they do, or is this some kind of wierd exception to normal high standards. Because I think that's what will affect what you do.

If this isn't normal for them, then I think you do have to meet the teacher, accept that this is going to be quite a grim meeting (and as others have said, bring your facts with you), and then escalate it pretty fast to the head and governors.

If this is - then - and I know this isn't easy - but if it was me, I'd be looking around for a way out as soon as possible. I can't think of anything more likely to put an enthusiastic child off learning than what your DD is going through.

And if I ever end up HE'ing my DD, I will remember this post as one of the reasons why....

Habbibu · 26/02/2009 19:40

Bloody hell. That's appalling, cory. DH and I are both medievalists (I'm technically ex these days, but nonetheless...) and DH in particular would be furious about this. He rants at the TV enough as it is. God knows what he'd do if this happened when dd goes to school.

Part of me is pleased they're doing the Middle Ages at all, but to do it so badly... I think your profession may be useful here, if you wear it lightly enough.

cory · 26/02/2009 19:51

It's not typical of the school, vonsudenfed; as far as I can make out, every other subject is taught in a perfectly serious and appropriate way. Dd is learning proper facts about Antarctica and French irregular verbs and how to solve proper maths problems and real science. It's the best school in the neighbourhood for results, so this teacher is clearly a one off.

Besides, it's the only school that dd can go to, due to her disability. And HE is not an option, again due to disability- she can't travel much and I can't drive, so we would end up literally stuck at home. We have spent too much time stuck with each other, due to her ill health, we very much need to have our own lives now.

And she is happy at school.

So I don't want to cut off the branch I'm sitting on- just gently express my dissatisfaction in the fluffiest way possible

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cory · 26/02/2009 19:54

I have been in to complain about things before- when dd was at junior school, but that was about absolutely appalling things, like serious breaches of the Discrimination Act. I had no doubt whatsoever that that school deserved to land in the shit and would have been delighted to see them in court.

This is a completely different situation- more of a niggle than cause for a genuine full-frontal attack. And dealing with a school that I have reason to feel appreciative of. So I want to make sure I don't go into my old fighting mode again. I used to be rather good at it

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cherryblossoms · 26/02/2009 20:10

Cory - if dd's teacher is head of humanities, and dd's class is one of top sets, year 7 and a trainee teacher is taking over, is it possible that head-of-humanities teacher is not actually a history teacher but filling in for a history teacher that is on maternity leave or something?

I know that our school used to do that (though I'm not sure that's permissible in this day and age).

It might be filling in a time-table gap or something with a group the school knows they can catch up with at a later date ... .

I'm not a teacher though and have no idea how schools work.

cory · 26/02/2009 20:18

Yes, I suppose that might be an explanation, cherryblossoms. But a whole year seems a long time to lose to poor teaching. And if I understand rightly, this teacher sets the work for the whole year. Otherwise I'd simply ask for dd to be moved down one set so she could learn something

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ellingwoman · 26/02/2009 20:28

The trainee will be a history teacher though won't she? As a trainee she won't be taking the class alone but will, hopefully, see how appalling the sources etc are and do something about it. When you say she 'seems' to know even less - what is that based on?

bloss · 26/02/2009 20:42

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bloss · 26/02/2009 20:51

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cory · 26/02/2009 21:22

ellingwoman Thu 26-Feb-09 20:28:18 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

"The trainee will be a history teacher though won't she? As a trainee she won't be taking the class alone but will, hopefully, see how appalling the sources etc are and do something about it. When you say she 'seems' to know even less - what is that based on? "

It seems she is taking the class alone atm, while the history teacher is somewhere else (they have been told she will return after Easter).

As for the trainee's knowledge- admittedly second hand information from dd; I haven't seen anything written emanating from her. But she knows she will be marking the witchcraft text, yet has not made any effort to offer the students any support or suggestions on how to do it in a meaningful way. Dd did try to raise concerns with her, but got the impression she did not understand the problem.

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senua · 27/02/2009 10:12

If you are going straight to the Head or Governors, do you have any concrete ammunition? Does this form of teaching (a) put children off choosing History for GCSE (b) cause the children to get below average marks at GCSE?

Can you speak to parents in older year-groups: does this problem continue in other years or is it just a Y7 thing?

cory · 27/02/2009 10:36

I don't know, senua. I hadn't really thought about going straight to the Governors; I'm looking for a softly-softly approach I think. And don't really know how it affects other. Had only got as far as thinking about my own precious dd .

Haven't really spoken to other parents as this is not our catchment school and dd gets taken there by disabled taxi. Did attend the one open evening but that was early in the year, before any problems had surfaced, and everyone was really shy and quiet anyway.

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