Any secondary school admissions officers to give advice?

[thoughtsandprayersdownthestairs]

Hi all

we’ve been on a waiting list for an in year admission at a full secondary school since June. We are desperate to get our child into said school and my child is desperate to go as she is unhappy at her current school miles away.

I last checked her position mid-September and dishearteningly, it was fourth. I know that the year group has historically had around 6-7 on average leavers per year who are then replaced via waiting list. There had been no movement at all mid September (when I would have expected the most)

so questions to anyone with experience or any admissions officers…which points in the school year do you get the most departures? I will ask for an updated position mid November i think, but don’t want to ask too often as it’s annoying for them and not proving very helpful for us.

any insights or positive stories welcome!

Bumping just in case 😔

@thoughtsandprayersdownthestairs
Is this for year 7 or another year group?

Outward movement is fairly random because it is at the whim of individual families, who may be withdrawing to home-school, move house, or because they got a place at a higher preference school. The only semi-reliable pattern is that people who move house sometimes try to time it for the summer holidays, to minimise disruption, in which case they would leave at the end of the year in July. However, their places can't be re-offered until September when they are confirmed to have registered elsewhere or have permanently left the area, in case they change their mind.

Another consideration - there may be no movement, but that doesn't mean there haven't been leavers. Its possible that leavers have been replaced by late applicants who joined the waiting list at a higher position than you. Its also possible that the school was forced to go over its PAN by successful appeals or FAP admissions or late EHCP applications, in which case no places will be offered to the waiting list until enough students leave for the numbers to drop below PAN.

@trunk.Thanks for your reply. It’s not year 7, it’s an in-year transfer for year 8.
I would have thought a popular time is timing it for the end of the school year too, but as I mentioned, there was no movement at all between June and mid September (I ask the admissions officer for this information when I ask for an updated wait list position so I know there have been no leavers or new starters even if they didn’t come from the waiting list and came from an EHCP etc). So I just wondered if anyone knew of any other points in the school year that are more likely. I appreciate there are no guarantees as people’s reasons for leaving are all different, but both statistically and anecdotally, I’m sure people in the field may notice other patterns. For example, I’ve heard that there is a lot of movement in year 8 as there is the beginning of year 7, but I’ve idea how true that is!

It depends on the school. Our local comp used to have a fair bit of movement as people got into grammars in the next county (we are a third of a mile from the border) or over to private.

Since the VAT on private school fees people aren’t leaving the grammars, nor the comp which is rated outstanding. One place came up in Y7 last year.

Perhaps the VAT on private schools could be having an impact. There aren’t many private schools or grammar schools in the immediate area but there are within about an hours travelling time. Interestingly though, last years year 8 cohort had many more departures than the previous 6 years! So I guess I was hoping it would be the same this year. I’ve been trying not to watch the pot, but it’s hard as my child is unhappy.

@thoughtsandprayersdownthestairs in your op you said that year 8 at this school has "historically had around 6-7 on average leavers per year" (which is a high number for a popular school) and yet in your most recent post you said "last year's year 8 cohort had many more departures than the previous 6 years". These 2 statements seem to contradict each other. Where are you getting the information?

I said 6-7 is the average. Last years was higher than average, I don’t think those two statements do contradict each other as I did say last years was higher than all the previous. . I was given the exact numbers for the last 6 years when I was looking to appeal and asked for several key pieces of data. Ultimately I didn’t appeal for a place as I don’t think it would have been successful. @trunk

I see. I read it as higher than the previous 6-7 years put together.

It is a relatively high number of leavers. Are you certain it is just for year 8 and not across the whole school? Our school only only gets about 2-3 a year in each cohort.

If you name the school, people may be able to give you information about where those leavers are going and why, and that might help shed some light. But otherwise, it's a bit difficult to suggest anything. Perhaps you need to ask in a local Facebook group instead.

@trunk yes im quite sure of the data given. As my OP says, wasn’t looking for school specific info as I have all that. Just wondered if anecdotally anyone in admissions had noticed a particular time of year that’s more popular for departures. Whilst these things will vary and obviously school departures ebb and flow, it is possible to extrapolate these things and I would find it interesting as the department for education don’t hold that data so there is nothing to go on nationally.

@thoughtsandprayersdownthestairs some private schools do have a 13+ entry point into year 9, in which case students would leave their previous school at the end of year 8. But otherwise, there is nothing specific to year 8 that could be generalised nationally.

In some areas there are Studio Schools with an entry point in year 10.

Was just after whether some parts of a school year (any school year really) tended to be more popular than others for departures in admissions experience. For example, Christmas onwards or February onwards etc. I’m hoping for a place this year rather than year 9. Perhaps it’s an even spread, but was just a general question to try and find that out really.

I doubt anyone can give you the information you’re seeking (or, at least, not in a way that helps) because so much depends on the school, its location and the demographic it serves. There has always been a lot of churn in my area (for example) as families move in and out of the city, but that churn is not spread evenly between the schools, as families who have got places in the more popular, oversubscribed schools are more likely to stay put.

@PanelChairi think my question may have been lost in translation somewhere. I know what the churn is like for my school, so I could make an educated guess as to how many leave this year, I was just wondering if anyone ‘in the know’ had noticed what times of year are more popular when it comes to departures (other than the obvious summer of course). For instance, I read on another, old post of someone else’s that they had noticed (as an admissions officer) that around the midpoint of the year tended to produce more departures and I wondered if anyone else had any experience that might back this up. Admissions officers rarely work on behalf of just one school, it’s usually an area or an academy for example. That’s all I was wondering.

Nothing’s been lost in translation. You’re asking admissions officers about the pattern of churn in their schools (when students tend to leave throughout the year) and I am suggesting that whatever they can tell you about patterns in their school will by its nature be specific to that school and may tell you little or nothing about what is likely to happen in the school you’re interested in. For schools which are not their own admission authority and where the local authority oversees admissions for a number of schools, it’s likely to be similar; there will be a lot of variation between schools and even within schools between year groups.

@PanelChairI do understand all of that, I just wondered if anyone would have noticed patterns, as I said. For instance, the admissions officer I deal with oversees 5 secondary schools, some of which are oversubscribed, some of which aren’t but perhaps some times of year still tend to be more popular on the whole. Obviously not looking for specifics and I understand that some schools won’t have many departures and others will have more, but presumably, the point in the school year could still be similar if anyone had noticed those patterns.

We have exactly 0 times that are more popular than leaving in the summer. Students will suddenly move overseas, or leave to another school or EHE, basically randomly.

I can't even pinpoint patterns on year group most popular to move in, especially as we still have the local population bulge moving through the school and therefore are well over oversubscribed in two year groups.

If there were patterns of more students moving out at certain times of the year they would have to be counter balanced by equal numbers of students moving in, who might cause your DC to move down the waiting list.

Unless there's a sink hole somewhere in the country where everybody moves to.

@SunsetGirl thank you! That’s really interesting to hear.

There is a sink hole - it's called home education! 😐

I think it is very area / context specific. For example if you are in a university city, you may have overseas students and academics moving with their children, an independent school closing may lead to more demand for high performing schools as would a parent losing their job and removing their child from the independent sector, then there may be children moving in and out of the area in temporary accommodation DV, new to country / area etc., and in year managed moves to prevent expulsion.

Of course, other pupils with a better match to the oversubscription criteria or from the Fair Access Panel, including those with no school place, may leapfrog your child.