Can children get into selective secondaries without tutoring or holiday courses?

[Cranberryhead]

Hi all,

Just wanting to get a bit of advice here as completely new to this. We are aiming for a few schools in the London Consortium, but also trying out Henrietta Barnett, NLCS and Habs. We havent tutored - just working through books at home, but not heavy pressure study. HB is a few weeks away but others are all in Dec.

There are a few companies offering holiday camps and we are thinking of English, as we have tried one already and really enjoyed it. We started looking at more as you can go down a rabbit hole here - and im in two minds because part of me just wants DD to just try it without, the other part is thinking we need to have some sort of formal prep.

i guess im asking can a child get into these places without the tutoring? and if so, what level of tutoring did you have/do.

I can't comment on those specific schools but I am in SW London with a similar mix of private and competitive grammars. The main thing they need prep for is working to time and exam technique. At our grammars, especially for maths, there are many many questions and it's about being fast in order to get more marks. So I'd say they really need speed experience but not necessarily at a high pressure camp.

Mine did. Both got into an academically selective independent secondary on academic scholarships with no tutoring/extra work outside of their normal state primary.

Of course it’s possible, it will entirely depend on your child’s abilities specifically related to the entrance exam though. No one is going to be able to tell you whether your child would be able to do it without tutoring or not.

We are in that area and most people we know have tutored - the ones who insist that they didn't tutor simply had a parent sit with them and go over the questions a few times a week - i.e. exactly what a tutor would do, just unpaid.

Girls we know who didn't do tutoring at all were aiming at the more middling schools, eg Channing or Queens, which aren't as selective, and/or were at preps, so covered the material in school.

If you can afford it and your daughter has enjoyed it, I'd just do it anyway, it's a fairly small cost compared to what you'll be paying for education (if going to the independent schools), and doesn't take too much of a time commitment.

DD didn’t have any tutoring or do any holiday courses, along with most of her more academic friends. They all got into selective secondaries, some including DD with academic scholarships. Some of her other friends needed a bit more help, some got it, some didn’t. So it’s really about the child.

Edited for additional context:

It also depends on how much the primary/prep school does to ready the children for entrance exams/CE. DD went to a prep school that did a lot - especially focusing on exam technique. If your primary/prep doesn’t focus on that, then I think tutoring is probably necessary.

I’d also add that parents were very involved in all cases in supporting the learning of the DCs. So substituting to a degree what a tutor can do (obvs not everything unless they are qualified teachers themselves). “Enrichment” activities at weekends etc can make a huge difference.

@TheBossOfMe id say our school has not prepared us at all as its an all through indie school.so its hard to tell. DD is up there in the top 3 but given most seem to tutor, i dont want to put mine at a disadvantage. And i do think their English is weaker than Maths

@Collean may I PM you please?

I think the all through indies are usually a bit rubbish at this because they have a vested interest in you staying. So totally understand why you would need a tutor in those circumstances, who can help with exam technique etc.

It’s difficult but possible. The biggest thing is always exam technique as the questions aren’t like what they do school. If your child is bright enough they just need to practise a lot of questions without specific tutoring. It is very child dependant so always hard to say whether a child can manage without. Probably worth getting a few sessions at the very least just to run over tricky stuff.

I think if you're at an indie already, it's different as they're preparing everyone for 11+ to sme extent. Certainly from Dd's state school, you wouldn't have been able to get in without some tutoring as the exams were at the start of Y6 and, particularly in Maths, tested work like long division/ multiplication that they didn't do until later on in Y6.

They tutor, and lie and say they don’t. Or parents sit with kids and work through the books.

I know of a family who got two kids into hyper selective South West secondaries
with zero preparation
older one did not remember the exam was on
but the younger one is currently at Oxbridge !

I have over 20 years experience teaching Y6 in a north London primary in an affluent area where around 1/4 of our children go to selectives (mainly private due to how difficult it is to get into non fee paying selectives). Despite what people say, I have never known a child to get in without extra work. Most of the time this is private tutoring, and it really needs to start by Year 4. I have known some be successful through tutoring from parents, but this tends to only work with exceptionally bright children and very disciplined parents.
As others have said, it is not just about being bright, it is learning examine technique and this takes practice.

My daughter’s friend was whipped into shape daily (very strict parents) and in a prep school she didn’t get into HBS this academic year she was incredibly bright (top in the year group). Not sure if location was the issue but she didn’t get a place. However, she did get scholarships in a few different schools.

I think HBS is incredibly tough (not sure if location was the issue as out of area) however I’d say the grammers are getting harder to get into. Private secondary getting easier to get into as lack of cash / increased fees so less demand.

I do think schools alter the marks / cut off point if you are at a state school or a prep school.

If your going to a selective your child has to LOVE learning and want to work otherwise it isn’t going to be a pleasant experience for them.

My DS had tutoring from yr 5 and got offers from 2 independent schools (one selective). Funnily enough in his Maths SAT exams he was the only person in his year to understand what mean and mode meant because he had done this with his tutor!

If you are not too bothered about which secondary he goes to then wing it but if you want to make sure 100% of offers from certain schools then definitely do the prep. It's really only for a short time compared to the next 5 or 7 years of the child's education.

Mean and mode is on the year 6 curriculum so the primary school failed in their duty to teach it!

Very occasionally but why risk it if its important to you?
The main thing they need is exam technique and learning how to answer the specific type of questions on the 11+.
A friend invigilates the exam at a local Grammar and she says that each year she sees children in tears because they have never seen anything like the exam. Some parents think any bright child will do well
DD did a load of exam papers and some group tuition for a couple of terms and did really well and some of her friends did similar. She did 1 summer exam with a 1 day session a week later to go over her mistakes but that was all

Thank you @Hoppinggreen - youre right, i just wasnt sure whether to risk it because of cost really but i think DD will really enjoy it. And i want to give them the best chance i can

I think you can tutor yourself. But they need to be well prepared for exam by going the past papers and books together.

They taught the kids about it post SATS! The school's overall results were fairly dismal!

It's not only that all-throughs want (most of) their students to stay. They sell it as a feature that, compared to preps, not needing to spend a half-year or more preparing for this specific set of exams means they can spend more time on more interesting and, possibly, useful learning.

Nearly everyone will improve their expected score on an exam if they get more familiar with the exam format, e.g., what do the questions look like and what are the timings on the sections. Doing past papers goes a long way towards this.

Nearly everyone will improve their expected score on an exam if they understand the marking scheme, e.g., which specific attributes of a writing piece are rewarded and which questions are worth more relative to the time required to answer them. This is where specialist help such as a prep school, a tutor, or a holiday course can be useful.

In answer to your specific question, it is very likely possible for some students to pass an exam with no preparation, but the chances that any individual student will pass is higher if they prepare. Especially since there are a fixed number of places so the passing score is determined by the competition and many of the competitors will have prepared.

Henrietta Barnet has 3,500 applicants for 120 spaces and if you imagine that many of those 3,500 will be in the top 10 of their current class, your daughter will be competing with people similar to her.

I agree that people who say they don't tutor for these types of schools are being dishonest. Likely the parent is going through books with them at home and to be honest this is the best way because then you know how they perform in the mocks. A tutor will never tell you this, they will always tell you how fab and smart your child is as they want to continue with you as a revenue stream.