Does this sound like neurodiversity, laziness or what?

[Cheeseandmorecheese]

I’m sorry this may be rather long, but I’d be very grateful for some views on whether there is something other than lack of effort going on here.

DS is 14 and in year 9. He genuinely seems to be very smart - in the top set for everything at secondary, came top in his primary school on SATS (maths and English), and reads multiple books a week plus has his own subscription to an (adult) news magazine as he’s so interested in current affairs. He can have detailed conversations about world politics and history that are at least as knowledgeable as my undergrads (I’m a university lecturer). His reports have always been great, both for effort and achievement, and said that he’s a pleasure to teach.

Since year 7-8 I have been slightly concerned as to his progress. He doesn’t seem to be able to communicate much at all in the languages he’s learning at school - in fact in one he can’t even count to 10 or write “my name is…”. I saw a draft humanities essay and it was badly written, structured and punctuated. In English he didn’t seem to put capital letters in. His grades still seemed OK, though, so I assumed my standards were too high.

This week everything has changed and he’s had a terrible report. Across almost all subjects his grades are slipping badly and his teachers say he isn’t making enough effort/isn’t achieving anywhere near what he’s capable of. He failed a science exam because he forgot to turn over the question paper to do the second half (!). He has been forgetting to do homework; forgetting to log homework he’s done; and finishing class assessments early after writing only the bare minimum. His teachers all say he’s great orally in class and a lovely lad, but his written work is at a much lower standard (which fits what I’ve seen) and he needs to make much more effort.

At first I was cross with him. But he seems genuinely baffled and upset. He says he’s making just as much effort as always. He says he finishes class assessments early because he has written as much as he can. He also says he hates writing and finds it hard to convert his thoughts to text (which baffles me as he reads all the time). At home, I’ve noticed he avoids picking up a pen ever, even to do maths workings or write shopping lists.

On reflection I don’t think he’s slacking off. He just seems to have no clue his written work is not meeting the right standard. I asked him to write me a 2-paragraph essay about a novel he’s recently read, which he cheerfully did (he’s unusually easygoing for a teen!) and it was dreadful - short, terrible SPAG and no structure. Yet verbally he could describe complex themes and how and why the writer had created them, discuss historical parallels, and even quote parts of the book.

Can it be just that he isn’t as bright as we thought, and his teachers are interpreting it as laziness? Or could there be something else going on, like a neurodiversity that he was able to compensate for by smartness until now? Socially he has no problems. At home he seems mostly content. He has always required a lot of attention and input though - he can’t be on his own in a room without coming to see where I am and if I’ll entertain him/feed him/chat. His much younger siblings are far more self-sufficient.

Thanks so much for any thoughts for anyone who’s got this far. Right now I don’t know whether he needs a bollocking, some skills training or an Ed Psych assessment!

I’m no expert but a big mismatch between verbal and written skills, and also the big drop off in performance at year 9, would definitely raise flags for undiagnosed ND.

This is exactly the level when many kids find sheer brightness won’t compensate any more if there is something else going on.

How’s his physical coordination? Organisation?

Hmm this is quite familiar to my 11-yo, and his English teacher flagged it quite recently. I was wondering if his thoughts are kind of subconscious until he speaks?! Or writing uses a different part of the brain? My kid’s Dad has ASD, so I don’t know if that’s an issue for us.

I would go to ed psych if that is an option, as it sounds like he is having some specific issues relating to structure and organisation of written work, which could relate to something like dyspraxia, dyslexia, or ADHD. Some children with dyslexia do well enough at learning to read because they are highly motivated to read and/or because they have good pattern recognition so they get good at recognising whole words. A synthetic phonics system taught very well can also work well for some dyslexic children. So it sometimes shows up much more in writing than it ever did with reading.

Definitely would not go to bollocking as this does not sound like it would help, esp if he is puzzled by the results and is putting effort in, it is very possible that his intelligence has allowed him to compensate for some kind of difficulty up to a point where the demands of him by school have increased past his ability to compensate - in this scenario, the pupil is often completely unaware that they have even been compensating, they just assume that everyone does things the way they do them.

This sounds like my daughter - a mismatch between what they know/think/say and what they can write. Get him tested for dyslexia. Good luck.

Thanks for this - very interesting! His physical coordination skills are pretty good, actually, and he plays a lot of sport (for fun, not at a high level). He’s always had trouble with fine motor skills though eg pencil grip, doing up buttons etc.

General organisation is….OK. Not noticeably awful, but not stellar either. He does forget to take his PE kit or bus pass etc. My organisation skills are pretty crappy, though, so it’s hard for me to judge if he’s poor or average!

Thanks - this is really in line with what I’m starting to suspect. He definitely doesn’t know he’s compensating (if he is), and he also doesn’t think he’s having any difficulties. The bad report seems to have been a huge shock, and he asked if they’d got the right student!

I really hadn’t thought about dyslexia though. He was an early reader and reads all the time. I didn’t know that was possible.

Am super dyslexic and as a kid used to read voraciously. So it doesn’t always preclude it.

ask him if he reads all the descriptions of places and characters in books or just focuses on the narrative. If You just care about the story then this turns you into a super fast reader. As you skim the page and skip it if it doesn’t move the story along

My fear with a private Ed Psych, though, is that they’re unlikely not to find something! I may be being too cynical, but many appear to be set up to make money by precisely that.

This year I notice at least a third of my undergrads have an “inclusion document” that gives them special dispensation with something (extra exam time, exemption from being asked their opinion in seminars etc). I’m a bit reluctant to go down the route of pathologising DS’s issues if there’s any chance he’s just having a temporary blip.

So much of what you described chimes with ADHD presentations. Bright kids can mask for a very long time, but things like forgetting to turn over the page in a test or writing a badly constructed essay even though verbally they can articulate ideas well points to a brain that's working on overdrive and therefore struggles to keep pace with their own thoughts.

The thing about ND - whether ADHD or ASD - is there's no "one size fits all". Every person can present in a slightly - or even very - different way. Recent research on ASD, for instance, suggests there's no "spectrum" as always believed but actually four distinct types.

I would speak to the SEND teachers at his school in the first instance as there are simple checklists that you, he and his teachers can look at to assess whether there's a case to get a full assessment. And then, if that demonstrates any likelihood of ADHD, I would get a private assessment (NHS waiting lists are shamefully long).

What struck me was the great sats and now poor SPAG. Has he actively gone backwards do you think, rather than improving?

My sense is his teachers will definitely not think it’s ADHD or similar. They all seem to think he isn’t putting in as much effort anymore. Several said he was distracted, perhaps by his friends (which he denies), and needs a lot of direct stimulus/supervision now to be able complete tasks.

The “needs stimulus/supervision” has always been the case at home. He simply can’t seem to sit down long enough to do something (unless it’s reading or Lego) unless I sit with him. Trying to get him to practise his instrument is a nightmare as he’s constantly out of his seat!

Reading this back, I’m starting to think it does sound like ADHD, doesn’t it? He doesn’t seem to have the “mind racing, going off at tangents” that I notice with my students who have ADHD though, so I assumed it wasn’t that.

I was wondering this exact question! How do you get full marks in SPAG at SATS and then not be able to construct a proper sentence 3 years later?

I’m not sure. Obviously I didn’t see his SATS papers, but I wonder if they’re just much, much simpler so no need to write complex stuff. Or he was concentrating solely on SPAG then so could do it, whereas now he also needs to think about, say, causes of WW2 and how to structure his thoughts at the same time, and just can’t manage so many moving parts? I don’t know,

Distraction is a key ADHD trait. And he doesn't sound like the kind of young person who'd say he's putting in the effort if he isn't.

I would absolutely speak to the SEND team at school, but in the first instance, you and he could individually look at a checklist and see how it comes out. Something like this:

https://add.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/adhd-questionnaire-ASRS111.pdf

Lots of headteachers at secondary schools will tell you that bright kids who've masked well and been top of everything at primary school are undiagnosed until they get to senior school. It's really very common.

How interesting. I had no idea. Thank you very much for this. I will discuss with DH and think about next steps. And will definitely hold off on the bollocking!

Sorry, I missed this comment!

I will ask - and it’s definitely true that he likes strong plot - but surely this can’t be the case if he’s reading long analysis articles about populism in the US or the rise of Islam in the Middle East for fun?!

A couple of things. DS in primary school could sit at the back of class, read a bit of his book, miss most of the input and still do really well. He was diagnosed with ASD/dyspraxia age10. In Yr 9 it became apparent that he was struggling and that sitting at the back, unable to filter out distractions (due to ASD) meant that he was missing the input and no longer able to just work it out himself. I managed to get him sat at the front of his classes and it made a huge difference. It sounds like your DS is similar and I'd really recommend him getting sat at the front of his classes as close to the teacher as possible.

Yr 9 was definitely the age where DS couldn't just rely on being clever to keep up any more.

The other thing I noticed was that at GCSE they are taught a very certain way to write in English language, rule of three, similes and all sorts of acronyms to remind them of things to put in their work are really drummed in. DS then thought that was 'the way' to write and was still writing in the same style when it later came to his EPQ. So maybe your DS would benefit from you talking through different styles of writing with him? In your sons case though I'd also assume that he is having to put some much effort into trying to get his complicated thoughts onto the page that he is losing his ability to also think about SPAG - which could actually be dsygraphia.

Can he think better onto a laptop? DS can, so that might possibly help him a little.

I wouldn't rule out ASD, ADHD dysgraphia or dyslexia tbh - or a combination of 2 or more. How is he socially? Did he make a whole group of new good friends at Secondary school? I'd have a read up on all the different ND conditions and see what rings a bell. Poor executive function is also common if you are ND.

Then I'd see an Ed psyche if you can afford it, they'll be able to tell you what his issues are at least even if you don't trust the diagnosis and you can use that report as a basis to then get him diagnosed by the NHS if you want. I wouldn't rely on his teachers to recognise it too be honest, if he is bright and well behaved he might well fly under the radar.

I was going to suggest ADHD. I’m diagnosed with ADHD and ASD and he sounds quite similar to me in school. I was well behaved and did very well in primary school and pretty well in GCSEs. My intelligence carried me that far without me having to do a lot. I really struggled at A levels because that was when that wasn’t enough anymore and I needed to work at it, and that’s not something I’m good at/can do by myself if it’s not my special interest topic. I imagine with the way they’ve changed GCSEs that point would come earlier now.

Could also be dyslexia.

Neurodivergent types are often co-occuring.

We noticed DC in year 6, bad spelling, punctuation issue etc. A family friend suggested using her son’s English tutor, the turnaround was amazing. Basically, the tutor noted that basic spelling mistakes was not corrected so never learn correct spelling. DC was taught how to structure essays etc. Tutor was very upset that the school allowed this to happen and not teach and correct properly. The gap was in the teaching and not being picked up. So maybe get a tutor to look at his work and assist.

I’d go down the ed psych route too.
A ‘spiky’ profile is often indicative of some kind of ND. And even if he’s not ND an assessment won’t do any harm and could very well help.

Spag at sats is not integrated into the writing paper.

there is a separate spelling test and grammar test.

see here for example.

it is very possible to do well in this test and not actually use good spag in your writing.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/682dbbc6baff3dab99775152/2025_KS2_English_GPS_Paper1_questions.pdf

it sounds like he needs support.

EPs can produce a report that looks in detail at what he can do and what he cannot do. The aim is not to diagnose (although that is sometimes a result) but to give a very specific list of what he can do and what is difficult.

they are quite expensive however.

in your shoes I would be inclined to up the support that you give him - start checking in each evening about what homework he has, keep a list eg on the fridge and double check when he has done it and also check it for quality.

secondary is the point where they start doing longer pieces of writing and structuring them is often a challenge for some students. A tutor can help significantly, or this may be something you can do yourself,

My DD was a very bright kid who went under the radar until secondary. This sounds very similar op (also ND). Agree re ed psych report etc (pricey and big waiting lists sadly in my area).

The bad report seems to have been a huge shock, and he asked if they’d got the right student!

Ah, the poor lad.
Definitely look for help OP. Get him assessed.
It’s possible things like assistive technology could be a great help to him.

I’m a bit reluctant to go down the route of pathologising DS’s issues if there’s any chance he’s just having a temporary blip.

How long are you prepared to wait though?
If he does have issues they need to be recognised. I saw DS’s self-esteem absolutely plummet at school when his issues were unrecognised. He was very bright but couldn’t keep up and didn’t know why. It’s not good for someone, feeling like that, does a lot of harm.

Also, it doesn’t sound like a temporary blip to me. You say you’ve been concerned about his progress for a year or two now.