Please explain exam boards to me: why so many? Why doesn't the DofE do it?

[ParentOfOne]

This is going to sound a very banal question, but can someone please explain the concept of exam boards?

In many other countries, it's the Department of Education that sets the national curriculum and prepares the national exams (GCSE, A-levels and equivalents).

• Why do we have various boards in the UK?
• Are they all private entities?
• Who pays for them?
• Has it always been like this, or was there a time when it was all done by the Department of Education?
• How meaningful are the differences between exam boards? Eg how much of a difference is there between Edexcel maths and AQA maths?
• Is each secondary school free to choose which exam board to follow?
• How comparable are the programs and the difficulty? Does this create an unfair advantage, if getting a high score is easier with one board than another?
• If there are no meaningful differences, why do we have multiple exam boards?

I have seen that Wikipedia provides some history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examination_boards_in_the_United_Kingdom but doesn't address the main questions

The GMC are a regulator though, they don’t set exams - that’s up to the royal colleges. Which aren’t owned by the NHS…. So effectively the same system.

As left wing as I am, fully supporting nationalisation, I cannot see how the civil service could do it cheaper than the existing exam boards.

Not everything needs to be a conspiracy.

Like I said (but many seem unable to grasp this banal concept) I do not think it is the most pressing issue in education.

It seemed like an oddity, and I asked about it. That's all.

Of course, if you want to think that I have some kind of dark hidden agenda and ulterior motives, you are more than welcome to think that! :)

Probably. Certainly doesn’t seem to be a problem with the current system. Unless OP is going to enlighten us…

@twistyizzy Yes it's under Article 2 combimed, or alongside, Article 14
It isn't about discrimination, it's about parental having the right to have their child educated according to their religion etc. That's why you legally couldn't get rid of them.

Thank you for reminding me that current UK laws allow this kind of discrimination. None of what you have written changes my point.

Everyone's taxes are being used to fund schools which discriminate admission based on religion. That's a fact. You can call it prioritise instead of discriminate if you'd like, but the facts remain the same.

It is also an undeniable fact that we would not accept this kind of discrimination for other state-funded services. We wouldn't accept it for hospitals or GPs, for example.

These are the facts. You can change the words but you cannot change the facts.

Shame on you for approving this kind of discrimination.

But a country so rooted in tradition that it still has a monarchy is unlikely to accept these self-evident banalities.

"Shame on you for approving this kind of discrimination" I accept no shame.

You do have an agenda whatever claims to the contrary you make. It is discrimination to NOT allow parents the option of faith schools.

I believe in plurality of choice. You obviously don't. Maybe concentrate your efforts into demanding better standards of education in non-faith settings.

@twistyizzy You accept no shame? Oh what a surprise. Even those who thought slavery and racial segregation were good and God's will accepted no shame.

The difference between me and you is that I don't want state-funded schools which propose my worldview and discriminate against others.
For the record, I would totally oppose a hypothetical school which does exactly that.

How this means I oppose plurality of choice is beyond my comprehension.

You don't need other taxpayers to fund a school which discriminates against other worldviews to teach your children your religion.

That the faith character makes schools better is notoriously nonsense. Most tend to be more socially selective, as explained by the Sutton Trust in several occasions https://www.suttontrust.com/our-research/selective-comprehensives-2024/

There are loads of forms of selection in this country, the mainstream one is buying your way via postcode into a school of your choice. Grammar/private/faith at least are honest about it! The former is done all over the country. Why limiting it to just the former somehow is desirable and fairer is beyond me. Would just create even more pressure on house prices/rents close to good schools. Be grateful there are other options out there to balance that one out somewhat. It gives some people other options, which alleviates the pressure.

You are obviously unaware of the segregated and selective nature of many state schools in UK.
Where have I said I want schools to discriminate 🤣🤣?

I don't even have a faith so your accusations are baseless.

Yes 100% you have an agenda here. I don't think you understand what you are really talking about here so I'm out.

I don't follow your logic: the presence of other forms of discrimination justifies discrimination based on faith? No, that's not my view at all.

For the record, I had made posts criticising the 11+ / grammar concept
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5250645-11-test-i-think-its-unfair-and-elitist

and admission by distance
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5348874-random-allocation-of-places-not-by-distance-thoughts-and-experiences?page=1

What on earth has any of that got to do with exam boards?

@ParentOfOne - your proposals are unworkable and idealistic. Nobody wants to spend the money, nor does anyone want loads of traffic.
Good schools boil down to excellent leadership who respect and value long term staff, reasonable regulation from Central Government and supportive parents and plenty of funding. Start with that one and then we can talk about niceties like admissions. Otherwise it is just attention seeking and busybodying when there is more urgent stuff to deal with. Like too many kids failing their Maths and English language GCSE and being written off by the system.

It hasn't

I wouldn't trust the DfE with such things. They struggle with their own remit never mind adding another load of responsibility that has nothing to do with setting government policy etc.

Do you have children IP? What school did they go to? How well did they do in their exams! What boards did they enter??

100% of pps have explained the current system to you, how it works, and works pretty well. You are arguing against the fact.

@Araminta1003 If you are talking about a random allocation within a certain distance in densely populated areas like London, that would not necessarily increase traffic. If someone who lives 1 mile from a school has the same chance of getting in as someone who lives 100 yards from it, that need not increase traffic. But that's another topic.

Good schools boil down to excellent leadership who respect and value long term staff, reasonable regulation from Central Government and supportive parents and plenty of funding

Sure. But accountability is also important. The academy model, which has kind of privatised secondary schools making them unaccountable to anyone, does not work. Mossbourne is an example.

@HostaCentral 100% of pps have explained the current system to you, how it works, and works pretty well. You are arguing against the fact.

Which part of

I do not think it is the most pressing issue in education.
It seemed like an oddity, and I asked about it. That's all.

was unclear?
Which part of that means I am arguing against which facts???

It is perfectly possible to find something odd while at the same time not finding it a priority. Disagreeing with something doesn't mean it is my life mission to change it.

“But accountability is also important. The academy model, which has kind of privatised secondary schools making them unaccountable to anyone, does not work. Mossbourne is an example.”

That is a very sweeping statement. Plenty of academies are excellent. Again, I doubt there is the funding to backtrack on that one. Most of us would rather any extra money is spent on good teachers, SEND and bringing up white working class kids on FSM to a level where they are not written off by the system (and we end up with right wing government and flags). How about some honesty? It is their parents not reading with them that leads to them failing English language. So get them reading daily at school 1:1 from an early age and early maths intervention. That costs money. Pretending that mixing them in with more middle class kids is completely disingenuous. They need qualified adults with experience teaching them, potentially even in the holidays, because their parents are not doing it.

@Araminta1003 I suppose I didn't explain myself clearly.
I didn't mean that all academies are terrible. Some are great and some are terrible, as is normal.

But that in itself is a moot point, since the vast majority of secondary schools are now academies.

My point was that the complete lack of accountability is a huge flaw in the system.

If there is a complaint, academies investigate themselves. In theory, the final stage of the complaints process is the DfE. In practice, it's not, because the policies clearly state that not even the DfE can overturn a school's decision.

Some academies are great. But they are not great because they are unaccountable. Lack of accountability was not required to achieve those results.

Some academies achieve great results on paper, while in practice hiding a culture of bullying terrifying and emotionally abusing their children. In these cases, the schools are not accountable to anyone.

Holland Park school was "closed" and reopened under a different trust. The head retired and was not even investigated.

Mossbourne: nothing happened.

How about some honesty?
What would I have said that's not honest? Please, enlighten me

It is their parents not reading with them that leads to them failing English language
I do not remember having said anything on this topic

Pretending that mixing them in with more middle class kids is completely disingenuous
I don't follow. Who has advocated mixing whom with whom???
Are you saying that grammar schools are good because this way kids who struggle to read are not mixed with more academic kids? Or were you trying to say something else?

What I am saying @ParentOfOne - focus on the stuff that is failing! Not the stuff that works like 5% of kids in grammar, what was 6% of kids in private schools (now lesser by the day due to VAT), faith schools, academies, exam boards.

The stuff that is not working is SEND and the cohort of kids failing Maths and English GCSE and working class kids on FSM underperforming.

By focussing on the parts that are OK overall (academies, exam boards, grammars, faith schools, private schools) - that is just a cheap distraction. It is what the politicians do - they cannot sort out the stuff that is failing because it is difficult and expensive to sort out, so instead they go for the stuff that actually works, which is completely and utterly absurd!

Well said 👏 👌

For the last time: I am NOT focusing on exam boards. I asked a question. That's all. I repeated numerous times that I have never considered it a priority. I am not going to repeat it again.

Faith schools: ca. 1/3 of state schools have a religious denomination. I.e. ca. 1/3 of state schools discriminate based on religion, despite being funded by everyone's taxes. That seems like kind of a biggie to me. It's not peanuts. Again, we would not accept this in any other crucial state-funded service.

The lack of accountability is not a small thing, either. You are welcome to dismiss it as irrelevant when hundreds of pupils former pupils and teachers come forward denouncing a climate of emotional abuse and bullying (Mossbourne), and absolutely nothing happens. But that's not my view.

And it's not just that school. The focus on exam results and Ofsted inspections, combined with the lack of accountability, is one of the main reasons why children with special needs are being failed across the country: because schools care only about Ofsted and exam results, because creating an environment which is hostile to special needs is a cheap and easy way to achieve that by incentivising special need families to sod off elsewhere. And all of this is enabled by the lack of accountability I mentioned.

I see this directly in my kids' school, which has become much more hostile to special needs since it got an Outstanding. I doubt it's a coincidence. My family is not affected directly, but I still think it is a bit of a biggie.

Saying that academies are "overall OK" doesn't mean anything, since most secondary schools are academies anyway.

Different boards also can offer different emphasis eg different history modules or emphasis on assessment process. My dc did music which varied a lot between boards. Some boards retained as levels as contributing to a levels for longer too

Ok, I’m bored, got a cold and stuck on the sofa, so:

most of what you are saying is opinion.
you don’t like the (current) English education system. Fair enough, I don’t like it much these days either and I’m glad (mostly) that I got out two years ago.

however a lot of what you are saying is either wrong or an opinion.

firstly, the fact that about a third of state schools are faith schools does not mean that a third of schools discriminate on entrance by faith. These schools are majority primary schools and many of them have admissions policies identical to non faith schools.
so that’s just wrong.

then you say that people should be ashamed for wanting to have religious schools. Well, that’s your opinion. A lot of people in England don’t agree with you. They do want faith schools, they don’t see why they should be ashamed about it.

it’s not the governments job to make the world the way you like it.

moving onto accountability, there has never been much accountability in schools. Pre academy chains they were under the aegis of the local authority, who would do some centralised functions -payroll, HR, stuff like that.

there have always been failing schools and there always will.

@Octavia64
the fact that about a third of state schools are faith schools does not mean that a third of schools discriminate on entrance by faith. These schools are majority primary schools and many of them have admissions policies identical to non faith schools.
so that’s just wrong.

Humanists UK https://humanists.uk/campaigns/schools-and-education/faith-schools/ maintains a table with the various types of school and the type of religious discrimination allowed by law: https://humanists.uk/wp-content/uploads/schools-with-a-religious-character.pdf

Voluntary aided faith schools, foundation faith schools and faith academies can all discriminate on religious grounds.

Voluntary controlled faith schools are the only type of faith schools which in theory cannot.

Where did you get that most faith schools are primary schools which do not discriminate based on religion?

Would you maybe like to retract that statement?

then you say that people should be ashamed for wanting to have religious schools

never said that. We can add misrepresenting other people's words to the list to be ashamed of.

I said people should be ashamed for advocating a system that uses everyone's tax money to finance crucial state-funded services which discriminate based on religion. That's a very different thing.

You are very welcome to send your children to whatever religious school you want to. Just don't use everyone's tax money for that.

Yes, that's my opinion. Because my opinion is that certain crucial services, paid for with everyone's tax money, should be open to all and not discriminate based on religion, nor on any other characteristic.

Would you be fine with a hospital that sends non-Catholics, non-Muslims or whatever to the longer queue? Yes or no?

moving onto accountability, there has never been much accountability in schools.

So what? We shouldn't worry our pretty little heads that we have schools bullying and emotionally abusing children, or creating hostile environments for special needs family because... there has never been much accountability? What kind of a logic is that???

No I do not want to retract.

there are 6806 faith schools in England of which only 629 are secondaries.
so the majority of faith schools are primaries.

page 18 of the parliamentary briefing note linked.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06972/SN06972.pdf