Hugging teachers at secondary school

[elliejjtiny]

Ds5 is 11, about to leave primary school. He has autism and emotional development delay (last time he was tested he was 8 years behind his actual age emotionally). He has been on lots of visits to the secondary school with me and yesterday he went to visit with his primary school TA and other pupils.

Ds is a sensory seeker and loves hugs. We have worked on appropriate hugging with him and if he is not closely supervised he will hug anyone so we always give him one to one attention when out and remind him not to hug people he doesn't know, always ask if people want a hug etc. It's exhausting sometimes and I get jealous of parents who can sit and enjoy a coffee in peace while their 3/4 year old's play when I have to constantly watch my 11 year old but I think we are making progress.

When we visited the secondary school for open evening ds hugged all the teachers. Being used to grumpy hormonal teenagers they all said how lovely it was and one teacher told him he never gets hugs from students so now ds thinks he needs more hugs.

I let him but then as long as he asks first and reminded him that they are safe adults, mummy knows them and if they want to be hugged that's fine. He hugs the staff in primary school too, but not the children, he is a bit wary of the other children in his class. A few staff members at primary school have said they will miss him and his huge when he leaves.

He came home from school yesterday a bit miffed because he had been hugging the teachers and his class TA from primary school had told him off. He said to me he hadn't hugged anyone without asking first and he hadn't hugged anyone who wasn't staff, he was very proud of himself for remembering that.

I'm not sure how to deal with this. Should I be telling him not to hug anyone at secondary school? At the moment I think he is doing really well to recognise that he should only but certain people.

Tbh it was ds who said that the TA told him off and it wasn't mentioned when we picked him up from school so I imagine it was a gentle reprimand and distract rather than a proper telling off. But ds wasn't happy because in his mind he was following the rules by asking first and not hugging any students. The only students he has ever hugged was his older brother's 2 friends who he has known a long time and we know they are both ok with it. One of them asked ds not to hug him a few weeks ago as he had been throwing up all night and didn't want ds to catch it which I thought was very considerate.

I hadn't thought about how things will be different when he gets taller and starts puberty. I think because he is my youngest and smallest and he is so emotionally behind his peers I forget that his body will change and he will become a man, sooner rather than later. I had this problem recently with my older son when someone touched him and he shut down in public. He was treated (quite rightly) as an adult, even though I still think of him as a boy.

Should add that me and my friend both work with children and I chose to work with little ones because among other reasons I love that they are affectionate towards their care givers. My friend teachers secondary aged children because among other reasons she didn't want to deal with being sneezed on, vomit and incontinence etc which is par for the course with younger children. So I understand that while ds can be an adorable novelty for some, there will be some staff who work in a secondary school because they want to work with children who won't try and hug them.

It will be way too difficult for him to be aware of, and to remember, which staff members would be okay with it, and which ones aren't. So it really does need to be 'you won't be allowed to hug adults at secondary school'.

in his mind he was following the rules by asking first and not hugging any students

I see his point of view, if that's what you'd previously told him. I think (with hindsight) it wasn't a good rule to teach him. There are going to be situations where someone will agree to a hug who doesn't really want one. Like a teacher running an open day who wants to save everyone embarrassment while trying to promote the school.

In hindsight it would have been much better to confine him to a list of people it's OK to hug. (People can be added or removed from the list as time goes on.) Then consent should still be asked for, but only from people on that list. You can help him write the list.

After all, that's pretty much how it works with adults in the real world (there being a small number of people one hugs), so it's good to prepare him for that.

There was a thread not long ago about unwanted hugs from colleagues in the workplace. The vast majority responded that hugs from colleagues are unwanted, even if asked first. You wouldn't want that for your son when he grows up.

Edit to clarify - no teachers on the list! The list would be mum, dad, aunty Mary etc

Here it is. Lots of responses saying that if asked, people agree to hugs to save embarrassment, but don't enjoy it and resent being asked.

Your poor son could end up very unpopular as an adult if you don't teach him, that he cant go around asking everyone for hugs or assume they like it just because they seem to consent.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/work/5203460-told-by-boss-to-stop-hugging-in-the-office

Thank you. I didn't think about teachers not feeling comfortable saying no. I do stop him hugging people if they say yes but look uncomfortable but I see that isn't a foolproof plan.

there will be some staff who work in a secondary school because they want to work with children who won't try and hug them.

@elliejjtiny maybe you didn’t mean this the way it was written! but I am pretty sure that’s not the reason any staff work in secondary.

I mean choosing between teaching secondary or primary for me had to do with love of my subject, wanting to support teens, teaching exam classes, wanting to deal with older YPs…

Honestly I am surprised staff let him hug them. It’s really not ok. For all the reasons detailed here. I am quite happy to hug family, friends if they want (some don’t), colleagues known through my volunteering role. But not students at school. Sorry not ever.

As a mother I'd be assuming no teachers want to hug my son. [If secondary age].

If they do, that's a whole other much more sinister problem.

So, yes, I think it's a pretty good bet that the Open Day teacher wasn't really hoping for a hug from your son and just consented to save everyone embarrassment in the moment. Open Days are awkward, stressful, smile-so-long-it-hurts events for teachers.

If he is going to a mainstream secondary he needs to understand no hugs in school. It wont do him any favours with his peers if he is seen hugging members of staff.

Yes that probably came out wrong! At the time I was talking to my friend when we were both in our late teens and I was asking why she would choose teaching secondary school children, with all the bad attitude, flouncing, hormones etc, especially seeing as we had only recently escaped from being at secondary school ourselves. She said she wanted to teach children who were old enough to not need their nappies changing or give her nits. She wanted to answer complicated questions and talk about intellectual things. She wanted to wear nice clothes to work and not have them wrecked. Sorry, I'm making her sound really shallow but I'm not meaning to! Meanwhile I would much rather crawl on the floor building a train track and singing the job the builder theme tune, even if the children sometimes wee on the floor and think my trousers are for wiping their hands on! I know it's more complex than that though and you don't decide to teach secondary school just because you like to keep your clothes nice and not get nits.

I do feel sorry for teachers though as more children with more severe needs are now in mainstream school and the teachers are now having to deal with things that they did not sign up for like primary school teachers having to change nappies and secondary school teachers having to teach children like my youngest who is still like a toddler in lots of ways.

I think it's a pretty good bet that the Open Day teacher wasn't really hoping for a hug from your son and just consented to save everyone embarrassment in the moment. Open Days are awkward, stressful, smile-so-long-it-hurts events for teachers.

All of that. There's no way that the teacher was going to recoil, or respond in any non-positive way when she's dealing with a very SEN child and their parents at an open day.

So I understand that while ds can be an adorable novelty for some, there will be some staff who work in a secondary school because they want to work with children who won't try and hug them.

I wouldn't exactly say that! Most teachers will choose secondary because they want to teach a particular subject, rather than the whole primary school curriculum. I'm a linguist. I'm not remotely interested in teaching maths and geography!

It's more that you get used to dealing with teenagers and with maintaining personal space. I did actually teach languages in primary schools for a bit and although I mostly loved it, I was very taken aback at first by kids cosying right up to me and hugging me round the legs

I’m a secondary school teacher and I certainly don’t have an issue with hugging children. In fact I have always chosen the schools where I’ve worked on the basis of how they approach teacher-pupil relationships and I won’t work in schools with strict ‘no touching’ policies.

Schools are communities, and strong communities are built on strong relationships. Schools should be places where adults and children feel comfortable and safe in each others’ company and there is a relaxed environment, akin to a family. We should be able to hug a child who is in distress or celebrating, give a supportive pat on the shoulder to a child who needs a bit of encouragement, and be able to put an arm round a child who needs a bit of moral support or human contact, without it becoming a safeguarding issue. I find it so deeply sad that in so many schools this is not the case, and yet we wonder why so many children hate school and find it such a negative environment to be in.

I was hugged by two sixth formers today who needed a bit of moral support after a tough exam. I was fine with this. At school we are in loco parentis and sometimes kids need you to be a parent and not a teacher - sometimes they will need to feel that you care and be comforted through having appropriate and consensual physical contact and I have never seen an issue with teachers providing that.

I know it’s not everyone’s stance but I’ve been teaching for 15 years and I’ve been hugging students since my first day on the job with no issues in all that time. So OP, yes, there are plenty of secondary school teachers like me out there who would have no issue with getting hugs from your child, don’t worry.

It wasn't just one teacher at the open day, it was at least 5, including the senco, head teacher and safeguarding lead.

Once one teacher accepted a hug, particularly the headteacher, the others would have felt obliged to accept as well even if they didn't want to. Who wants to create an awkward moment in front of their Head at an Open Day?

Surely you must understand that no teachers want to hug your son. Try to have some empathy for them.

I've worked in secondary for many years now, and I've never looked at a pupil and thought "I wish he'd come and give me a hug". Never. I like seeing them, they are lovely teenagers, nice to converse with, but I really don't want hugs with them. If one was in the habit of asking for hugs with me, encouraged by his mother, then I'm sorry to say, I'd start to dread it.

If I were you I'd be thinking of what's best for your son in the long run vs just the gratification of the moment. In the long run it will damage his self esteem if this habit makes him unpopular (it will). But instead if you just teach him that it's a rule you don't hug people outside your inner circle, he won't take it personally and understand it's a rule for everyone. I think there are poster resources you can get with circles where you can write names in.

Thank you. I wasn't encouraging him to hug anyone, it just didn't feel right to stop him hugging people who I knew well and I knew had a dbs check when they were smiling and saying things like "this is lovely" etc. If he hugs people for longer than is normal I always gently remove him and say "that's enough hugging now, Luke" or similar. My older son is sensory avoiding and can't communicate when he feels uncomfortable so I like to think I am good at spotting the subtle signs if Ds is hugging someone who doesn't want to be hugged. The trouble is when I am not there which is one of the reasons I have insisted that he needs 1-1 at school.

Primary school have been trying to teach him about personal space etc and so have we with varying levels of success.

It sounds like you actually have quite a lot of the building blocks in place - he knows and accepts that certain people you don't hug, he has a sense of why people might not like it and it's not personal, and he has had success with not hugging peers.

The open day is a very specific circumstance and the closest blueprint he had to it on the day was primary school. Primary are trying to teach him against a background of years of experience of it basically being ok to hug the adults there. I think there is a good chance that the change of setting and a lot of teamwork between yourselves and school, he could adapt to a new normal quite well. You have a lot of groundwork done, but you do need the teachers to be really consistent in the message he gets in that new normal.

I don't think the teddy is the whole solution, it's too far away for a reliable redirect but could be part of the social story with waiting til break and lunchtimes. It's worth using the compression vest etc along too with a strong social story about how much hug it is already giving him. The fact it didn't make a difference when he was younger doesn't mean it isn't worth another crack, especially as his understanding increases over time.

You might find he grows up a lot in Y7. From his own starting point, sure, but he'll still be 11 turning 12. Y7s with SEN will probably get a bit of grace but from all you've said of how much groundwork is in place, I think he might adapt ok once he moves schools. It is hard work for him having to work on this on top of everything else though.

I think it’s time to realise you do need to stop him. You can’t rely on other people saying no. I think the teachers at the open day will have felt overwhelmed by him and will either not have known how to deal with it or not have wanted to embarrass him at the open evening, but they will not be accepting hugs if goes to that school.
He’s becoming older and going into another world, one where it’s not normal to hug carers, teachers etc. So you need to prepare him for this.

I am good at spotting the subtle signs if Ds is hugging someone who doesn't want to be hugged.

I'm sorry but I suspect you are mistaken here. Until we pointed it out on this thread, you hadn't even considered that those teachers didn't wish to be hugged by your son. I can pretty much guarantee they would have preferred he didn't. They would have done their best to hide this feeling from you and they succeeded

Thank you. I don't know how he will cope without hugging anyone all day at school although I don't want him to hug any teachers if they feel uncomfortable. He normally gives me a really long hug just before going into school, hugs a few people though the day and then he is desperate for a hug when he gets home. I am happy to go in at lunchtime and give him a hug but I'm worried this will confuse him and he will think I am there to take him home. I will talk to the senco about alternatives to hugging. He has access to the sensory room but it's a bit sparse and the senco was talking about buying some stuff for it so I will ask her if she could get something that will help him get that sensory feedback that he gets from a hug.

@elliejjtiny

Honestly, please don’t worry.

There are a lot of miserable sods on here claiming that secondary school teachers never hug their students and don’t want any type of physical contact with them as if we’re a separate breed of human who can’t cope with being touched by children.

The vast majority of secondary school teachers are warm, empathetic and emotionally intelligent, and love being around young people with all their complexities and quirks. If a secondary school student needs a hug, they will have teachers who will be very willing to give them one - unless you send your child to one of these draconian academies where teachers and children are encouraged to be robots and education is reduced to a factory line - but judging from what you’ve said about the open day you attended, that’s not the vibe of the school you’ve chosen.

I give or receive a hug or some other form of affectionate physical contact from a student at least once a day, if not more. I hugged three students yesterday! And they were sixth formers. In my school it’s perfectly normal. We ruffle the kids’ hair, put an arm around them, put a hand on their shoulder to settle or encourage, give high fives, give hugs, etc. We spend more time with our students than our own kids during the week. It would be totally unnatural to me not to have this kind of warmth and connection with my students and I don’t think I am unusual in that.

I think OT is so important here to advise the right equipment.

Just chucking ideas around but I wonder if something like rolling sideways might be better than just hugging a teddy - like rolling down a hill. My son would tell you he hates to be touched but when he was younger he loved to be "squeezed". We used to roll him up tight in blankets/duvets/rugs and sit on him! Now he will lie under a giant beanbag. But you need professional advice really not anecdotes.

There are a lot of miserable sods on here claiming that secondary school teachers never hug their students and don’t want any type of physical contact with them as if we’re a separate breed of human who can’t cope with being touched by children.

That’s not what it is and I am sure you know it really. Most secondary schools IME have a policy either of “no touching” by staff at all or, if the policy is not as strictly laid out as that, it is not something that happens as a rule. Why? for safeguarding reasons, for the staff as much as anything. I am not a separate breed of human and I had plenty of pleasant and human interaction with my students, but I didn’t hug them. It would not be appropriate.

The vast majority of secondary school teachers are warm, empathetic and emotionally intelligent, and love being around young people with all their complexities and quirks.

Yes definitely agree wth that @EnidSpyton

It isn’t appropriate to hug teachers in secondary school (I’m a secondary school teacher). your son sounds lovely - but I think it best to make it clear now that the line is drawn in secondary school.

@clary I do know these no touch policies exist, but I've worked in three schools in my career and none of them have been like that.

I would never work in a school with a 'no touching' policy. Making physical contact with another human being is an essential social-emotional need, and touch is such an important way to communicate. I don't think we can build effective relationships without it.

In my career, I've often found that strategic physical contact can de-escalate situations and calm children much more quickly than any other form of behaviour management. Getting down on your knees on the level of a child, putting a hand on their shoulder or an arm around them, is an instant soother - it makes them feel safe, it makes them feel comforted and protected, and whatever anger or sadness that is prompting the behaviour is alleviated through that touch.

I do think the reason why so many secondary schools in particular are such awful places to be for so many young people, and the adults who teach them, is because we've lost the humanity at the heart of the teacher-student relationship. It's been removed through a combination of fear and mistrust, created by an increasingly litigious culture and a corporatisation of the teaching environment. I hate it. And I won't be complicit in it. I will always advocate for appropriate human connection through touch in schools as a means of fostering relationships and managing behaviour.