When could you identify your child’s academic potential?

[Op1n1onsPlease]

We are likely to move house within London or commuting distance in the next few years. DC1 is in Year 2 so will need to factor into secondary school for him even though it seems way too early.

At the moment I’m leaning towards finding a good comp rather than putting all our eggs in a selective basket as just less risk involved, but wondering when is the right time to make that call.

DC was an advanced baby/toddler (mainly speaking very early), but at school things have evened out and while he’s in the top handful in his state school class he’s unlikely to get greater depth across the board this year (he should in reading and maths but writing unlikely).

He’s May born so youngish in his class and doesn’t really care about schoolwork, is quite slapdash with homework etc and difficult to motivate to eg learn his times tables. This is obviously fine - he is only just 7! - but I’m wondering whether he might mature in the next couple of years or if this is just his personality.

For background DH and I both did very well academically (grammars and first class Oxbridge degrees) but were also very studious, nerdy kids which DC1 is definitely not.

I should say that private school is almost definitely not an option for us, so I’m thinking of grammar schools in London and nearby.

DS1- very early. He was speaking in sentences by one year, had incredible memory and ability at all sorts of things.

DS2, much later. He was very behind at primary school. Bottom table for everything, couldn't write his own name in Yr2, couldn't tell the time, couldn't remember times tables however often he practised them. But he gradually caught up in secondary. Ended up getting a first at a top uni. He just was a slow burner and we didn't push him, we just let him move at his own pace.

To be fair, vis a vis using correct speech and tenses, I think children mirror what they hear at home. If parents say “ta”, the child will say “ta” rather than thank you. If parents use incorrect tenses, so will the children.

DH and I have clear diction. It helped.

For the pp who crashed and burned at uni because her parents didn’t nurture social skills or extra curricular, whilst DH’s sisters graduated, their confidence and self esteem was battered and they never achieved their potential. DH was fine.

Dc1 is bright, keen reader, has been sadly put off maths by everyday sexism in her classroom (always choosing boys to say the answer, only boys getting praised for stem achievements) but she has always worked to greater depth across core subjects consistently. She is going for a grammar but I would never assume she will get it. All it takes is for her to get a bit worried, not sleep the night before and drop 10 marks and suddenly it's off the table. Stupid system!

To be fair I never used baby talk with him, no doggies, moo cows or similar.

I think you can tell as babies if they're intelligent. Early walkers, talkers, ideas. BUT intelligence isn't the same as academic.

So you can have a really intelligent child but they not be particularly academic. But I think that intelligence will come out at some point, possibly once they've left school and have gone into work.

Academic ability has usually shown itself I'd say by the age of 5 or 6? So end of Y1 definitely.

My controversial opinion (on MN, probably not in the real world) is that unless you have an academic child, private school is a bit of a waste of money. You might get slightly higher GCSE grades (particularly if the school goes IGCSEs which are easier to get higher grades in) but ultimately, they can't turn an average academic ability child into a high scoring one.

If you know you have a clever but academically average child, I think better to find out what their individual skillset is and find out how to help them progress in that area. So FE colleges, apprenticeships (and probably other routes I don't know about).

I know of a couple of teenagers, not academic due to SENs, but absolutely flying in their apprenticeships, who will be out earning me by 20.

My controversial opinion (on MN, probably not in the real world) is that unless you have an academic child, private school is a bit of a waste of money

I would say that private school is only worth the money in that case. Because you're paying for the networks, not the results.

My controversial opinion (on MN, probably not in the real world) is that unless you have an academic child, private school is a bit of a waste of money.

I know loads of people who chose private school because their dc were fairly average...

I was agreeing with you, so why the snark?

No snark

Son average but studious at seniors. Did better at A levels but went on to get a first in a BSc then same in a further degree in a different discipline and now has a PhD and working as a research scientist. Dont think you can call it

There are various areas you could move to and hedge your bets. DD goes to a comprehensive in a neighbouring Borough, which was a better fit imo than the comps in our local area. We have two grammars in the Borough, one girls' and one boys', plus grammars in the neighbouring Borough and the ones in West Kent are more or less commutable.

Public transport connections are important too.

I decided grammar wasn't right for her around year 4 or 5, but quite a few of her friends go to them.

Sorry, I meant to add that her little friend who lives nearby was quite obviously a grammar prospect by year 2, to my teacher eye, anyway, and indeed, that's the path her parents are going down.

It may be easier to tell with girls than with boys?

You're looking for added value. If your child was a 4/5 student at GCSE and they come out with 6/7 that isn't a lot of return on your money.

If it were possible to turn a GCSE 4/5 into a 9, THAT would be worth it.

I know children at a couple of the UK's top schools that are hard working and intelligent (in one area) struggling to hit 7/8s in their other subjects.

Guess it depends if you think that level is worth the cost. And the parents financial status.

Fair point.

Fortunately (in a way) we can’t factor private school in so it makes things a bit easier. I think the pp who pointed out the difference between being clever and being academic has it, as do the pps who mentioned the importance of work ethic.

DC1 was such a switched on baby and so ahead with all of his milestones - first word at 8 months, hundreds of words by 12 months and sentences by about 14 months. He would regularly freak people out and at that age he was exceptional compared to his peers. But as I said, since starting school he’s been in the mix of the top handful in his class but certainly not the top and certainly not exceptional.

By contrast my DC2 (DD) was a more normal baby but is just so diligent at only 4. Perhaps having an older sibling js part of it but she’s always striving to learn stuff (eg can now tell the time to the minute because she overheard me teaching DC1). Even though she’s basically a baby still I’d back her now, so I can completely see that for some kids it’s obvious.

If I was moving I'd avoid grammar areas and find a solid or excellent comp. Why put them through the 11+ if you don't have to. I'm watching friends kids do it and prepare for it, many are in tears over practice papers because of the time pressure, even if they're capable. In an 11+ area the academic cream goes to grammar and the other schools miss out on that top slice and may be worse as a result. There's a risk then that if your kid isn't grammar material or doesn't pass. I sincerely wish we weren't in a grammar area!

It's almost impossible to say, but the 11 plus tutoring started in yr4 at my DCs school so around that point you could always get a tutor assessment to see where he stands comparatively.
So if you don't have to move for a few years, it might be worth waiting another couple.

DD was very average as a younger child (in fact she had ed psych testing done at 5 years old which put her at exactly average in every area except processing which was a bit below) but around late 3rd grade or early 4th (about ten years old) she started to really put the effort in at school and even won a stipend when she finished primary school for having the highest grade average in her class. I think it was about 11 when I realised she could do well at school.
But now she's in her first year of upper school and cares a lot less about grades* and puts in less effort, sometimes the bare minimum so I suppose it can all change anyway no matter how smart they are.

*except for when her physics teacher miscalculated the grade on one of her exams and her outrage at the injustice of this outweighed her lack of care and she put things right. Made me proud (she was very diplomatic about it, which also made me proud)

Academic ability has usually shown itself I'd say by the age of 5 or 6? So end of Y1 definitely.

Not for DD2. With the notable exception of getting caught out by CAT4 assessment as it 'looked interesting' and her Y1 teacher delicately asking if it was OK if she had a little bit of 'special help because she's not really progressing with her reading and writing' (I did wonder if he'd ever considered Biff and Chip books were agonisingly boring and that was probably why she refused to read) she spent her entire school career being described as 'expected' with a 'she does some really nice art and practical work'.

The idea that saying 'ta' or 'moo cow' to your child is going to influence whether they go to Oxford or end up on the dole is ludicrous. It's neither here nor there. Speaking to babies and very young children in baby voices is actually seen as a good way to engage them - it's why programmes like Teletubbies and In the Night Garden exist.

I didn't think that DS was particularly bright as a young child, he was also incredibly stubborn. But I put a lot of effort into teaching him to read and once he got past the awful reading schemes he loved reading - I still read to him through Secondary school! I took a major interest in everything he did through school but it was clear from around Yr2/3 that he was pretty bright.

We went to the library a lot and to a lot of museums, art galleries, castles etc and really encouraged any interest he showed in anything. He had lego, chemistry sets, electronic set, magnets etc as Christmas presents depending on what he was interested in at that point and did various things like piano lessons and swimming club. IMO it's parental engagement/expectation and educational opportunities that really enable a child - calling a cow a moo cow when they're 2 years old is entirely irrelevant.

DS is doing a degree apprenticeship now and absolutely loves it, he went to a good comp but not in London. Grammar wasn't an option here.

Ours started talking at different times. One was past 2, another could read their name and ‘Mummy’ and ‘Daddy’ on their second birthday card. All could read before they started school. We had times tables songs playing on the school run and a bit times tables chart on the inside door of the loo, so they almost learned by osmosis. We made sure they were equipped for the 11+, all got to good schools and the older two to Oxbridge.

They weren’t all hard-working or nerdy: two hated doing any primary homework. But we read to them, gave them books and audiobooks, took them to museums and immersed them in a world where expectations of academic achievement were normal.

You can use a site like Atom Learning to find out where your child is against their age cohort. Year 4 CATS does this too.

Perception is also cohort dependent.

DS's self esteem was high as he was clearly the cleverest in the class in a nice, state cofe outstanding primary.

DD's was far lower. She was not the cleverest by a good stretch in a different year group at the same school.

Fast forward to 18 and of DS's cohort one girl did medicine and none went to Oxbridge. In DD's 12 went to Oxbridge and one did medicine. It was a gobsmackingly clever year and it was never acknowledged by the staff.

There are so many good comprehensive schools in London. If you can move to an area which has a couple to choose from (e.g near the Charter schools in Dulwich) which has good comprehensives and a critical mass of families that support education, your Dc should get on fine. More than fine.

I could see that my child had really strong logic and problem solving capacity from about 3 or 4, and had been using complex vocabulary, abstract nouns etc from about 18m. He was part of the Child of the 21st C study and tested regularly, and when he was v young the tester widened his eyes and said 'he is the only one who has done that' about the logical way he approached a question.

But he wasn't fast to read (hated guessing words or sounds)

Went to a good comp, top sets, got a few awards, Was high achieving but not a genius, was conscientious but not hugely driven at school (was very into playing in his band). Got a 9 at GCSE and A at A level in Maths (and all other STEM subjects and some 9s in other subjects too) . School thought he would try for Oxbridge but he wasn't fussed and didn't bother.

Went to a renowned RG Uni to do STEM, had a wild time, got a good 2.1 and head hunted for a good job.

SO much depends on temperament, outside interests, how they change in adolescence (they do!)

I certainly wouldn't base my house buying choices on selective schooling.

My daughter struggled academically and had zero interest in school work until she found her vocation while she was in 6th form. My son on the other hand was top of his class throughout primary, won a place at a super selective grammar and has continued doing very well there.

What marked him out from most of his peers (especially the male ones!) was his ability to concentrate and focus from a young age (way before Reception). He had an emotional maturity that didn’t necessarily serve him well in other ways, when most other boys were interested in rough and tumble and couldn’t sit still - he felt like an alien. But there were another couple of boys in his class like him - and they were also high achieving then and now.

Thats not to say many of the other boys don’t often become late bloomers who ultimately end up doing just as well. Statistically that must be the case. But your question was about how early you can identity academic potential.

Year 4 for us. Then I tutored him through the summer of year 5 into year 6 and he has flown ever since. I really believe in the kids doing some work over summer. I think it makes a big difference.