When could you identify your child’s academic potential?

[Op1n1onsPlease]

We are likely to move house within London or commuting distance in the next few years. DC1 is in Year 2 so will need to factor into secondary school for him even though it seems way too early.

At the moment I’m leaning towards finding a good comp rather than putting all our eggs in a selective basket as just less risk involved, but wondering when is the right time to make that call.

DC was an advanced baby/toddler (mainly speaking very early), but at school things have evened out and while he’s in the top handful in his state school class he’s unlikely to get greater depth across the board this year (he should in reading and maths but writing unlikely).

He’s May born so youngish in his class and doesn’t really care about schoolwork, is quite slapdash with homework etc and difficult to motivate to eg learn his times tables. This is obviously fine - he is only just 7! - but I’m wondering whether he might mature in the next couple of years or if this is just his personality.

For background DH and I both did very well academically (grammars and first class Oxbridge degrees) but were also very studious, nerdy kids which DC1 is definitely not.

I should say that private school is almost definitely not an option for us, so I’m thinking of grammar schools in London and nearby.

I would say he's very likely to get into grammar school.

You can always apply for grammars, the issue is the competition is insane now so a bright dc may not have a chance.

GD doesn't mean a grammar place in London tbh.

Very early with DD, probably 2 or 3.
She was way ahead all through Primary, although some did catch up by Y7
She did well in 11+ (250 out of around 2500 I think) and was offered a part Scholarship to Private.
Excellent GCSE results but A levels could have been better, although there were good reasons why not
Cyrrently flying in 1st year at Uni

I was way ahead at primary, passed grammar but refused to go. Came a cropper at A-Levels as I actually to revise & no idea how.

Honestly I take the view that academic ability is not as important as people perhaps think. But my view on that is coloured by my experience of life. I was always in the top one or two at school, 4 A grades at A-level, went to Oxford.

I flunked out after two terms with severe depression, self harm, the works really as I was utterly unprepared for life beyond school. I'd basically never left the house on my own, went out with friends or anything like that.

I got zero support or understanding from my parents beyond saying "you can't lie in bed all day. If you're not going to do something useful with your life go and sit outside in the rain for all I care".

I really struggled to find my way in life as my parents put so much emphasis on academic skills and absolutely zero on my actual well being. Even now in my 40s I'm still struggling with the aftermath of my childhood and haven't really lived up to my potential at all.

So whilst I know my daughter is intelligent it's not the most important thing in life. We have always read a lot and do her homework together diligently. She is an only child so has a great vocabulary and understanding of the world and an insatiable curiosity as she never stops talking and asking questions (which can be quite frustrating!). The assessments they have done at school so far she's in the 99% percentile.

But in my opinion social skills and well being are much more important than any of that. Of course you can focus on both but she is 7. I'm trying to let her enjoy her life as she has plenty of time to worry about grades etc.

Being an early talker I don’t think is indication of anything.
As well as intelligence you have to factor in work ethic. My sister is bright, so am I, in fact I reckon I’m arguably brighter. But she is much more studious than I am. She was a straight A student and is a doctor. I never worked that hard and was always a B student.
My own children, well my son could be a genius (he isn’t) but was not at all interested in the classroom and never applied himself. My DD is very smart and also very diligent - I knew from mid primary that she was clever, but also that her hard work would tip the balance so she would get top grades. She was not one of those kids who seemed to just be naturally very smart without having to really hit the books - never one to win any academic prizes. But she worked very very hard and got all A stars at A level.

I totally agree @Brainstorm23 - it’s not the be all and end all. The most successful people I know are not the ones who got the best academic results and nor are the people in either of these categories the happiest (which is my main priority for my children).

Im asking though because im wondering whether to include grammar schools as options in our house search, so academic potential, or specifically whether it’s possible to call academic potential in early primary and if so when, is relevant to that question.

@mondaytosunday agree, and it sounds like your 2 kids are exactly like mine in birth order, sex and attitudes!

It definitely sounds like grammar school could be a realistic option. My two are both May born and passed the 11+ comfortably, the results are standardised so as not to disadvantage younger children (although I’m not sure if this is the case for all schools). I think maths and reading are probably more important than writing for the 11+, as it’s multiple choice.

Year 9 in my sons case.

He was always hard working and interested in learning, but was late for reading to click. It all came together in year 9.

He had a reader and a scribe for his year 2sats, he didn't reach the expected level for part of the year 6 sats (writing I think) he got a 7 in both language and literature at gcse.

My youngest didn’t really put his foot down til he was about 14 and starting to study properly for GCSEs. Even his teachers were surprised when he pulled a large number of A* out of the bag (I think it was down to being pretty quiet so he didn’t take part in class that much, just beavered away in the background)

There's a lot of research about how a DC's academic potential - and outcomes, can be measured, The conclusions so far seem to indicate it's linked to the mother's academic outcomes (it's always the mother isn't it...). However, in answer to your specific question about grammar school.

Without being too outing, I live in an area of London where many DC apply to grammar schools. As others have said, competition is fierce. Several of my DS's classmates had tutors from Yr2. So you do need be aware of that.

Depending on where you live, your DC may need to score in the top 180 in order to qualify for a place. This anecdotally from the DC who I know who got in, would equate to working at around two years above their year group at primary.

If you move say to Kent or Bexley, in some areas, he would 'only' need to pass.

Sadly the system now seems to be weighted towards those who can afford to be tutored rather than those with 'natural' ability, which is what the 11+ system was designed for in the first place. (Although there is research to say the 11+ system does have built-in bias anyway).
It also does raise concerns about DC being' 'trained' to pass the test so some can struggle when they're put in a very pressured academic environment.

A couple of DC in my DS's who class did get into super selective grammar schools, I was surprised by. I would say they were by no means the 'brightest' of his cohort but they were tutored hard.

Obviously there is also the difference between being 'academically' successful and 'intelligent'. Some of the most academically high achieving people I know (professors) can barely cross a road!

DC definitely can come into their own academically at all sorts of ages - some schools have a 13+ entry point. I have also known so-called 'child geniuses' who burned bright but then achieved average degrees (or didn't go at all).
I know of DC who attended a 'bog standard comp' and got great GCSE results and then went on to a grammar sixth form - so there is that avenue.

I would say a DC's personality also matters in that they will need to be either quite compliant/happy to do the extra work that's required to pass the 11+ so there's that factor too.

I went to Oxford after a comprehensive school education, during which not a single person noticed my potential. It wasn't until my GCSE results (straight A*) that they started to fawn over me. All that to say, some kids just quietly crack on with things and need to do it their way. Also shoddy teaching may have little impact at that level, as long as there is reading and cultural exposure at home. I'm very torn as to whether to put my DCs in private or let them work it out for themselves like I had to!

I think you definitely need to factor in personality and attitude. DS was pretty obviously very bright - started school already reading and knowing most of his times tables, but what set him apart was firstly an absolute passion for science, maths and technology and real focus, even as a small child. He once did some Maths homework in Y2 and then announced with all seriousness that there was a lot more room in his head! He went to an average comprehensive and continued all through school to challenge himself (Maths Olympiad's etc)
He was very successful academically, Oxbridge, first class degree, top of his cohort.
It probably helped that at an early age he showed both a talent and a passion for a particular subject - which many dc develop in later years

I just think about my own progression….I wasn’t interested in learning really in private primary school. Handed in very messy work that couldn’t be read etc. Didn’t revise for exams in secondary and then realised I could do well if I did work…..ended up with 10 A stars at GCSE, 4 As at AL and 3 degrees including my first one at Cambridge! No-one would have thought this was the case at primary school age at all.
PS I’m kinda relying on this for my children so using my response to reassure myself too 😉.

Out of interest, what does he do for work now?

@Foxesandsquirrels he works as a Quantative Analyst in finance.

In retrospect, fairly early on. Always got GD in pretty much everything. Excellent Y2 SATS. Rave reviews at parents evening. Teachers always mentioned how hard he worked and how he gave everything to pretty much every task. He got picked for lots of things (poetry workshops/maths challenges etc).
So we knew he was a bright hardworking boy but didn’t know whether that was enough to get him into a grammar - turns out it was and he’s excelling there.
For a London super selective it’s the hard work, discipline and motivation that is key though. Plenty are bright enough but it’s the discipline which helps you thrive there.

Early on for DS. He's at Oxford doing Physics now. He was always interested in science and was way ahead of his peers in maths. But as others have said, it's the passion and drive that get them there.
You could always try the Stanford Marshmallow test. It's an experiment where you offer kids one marshmallow now or more if they can wait a short while. It predicts whether kids can delay gratification and therefore will have the temperament for university.

I was top of class straight A* pupil at primary but crashed and burned at secondary due relentless bullying. It can happen in any school!

DS was bright from as soon as he could talk. OH and I spent lots of time with him teaching him to read and write and his numbers before he went to school. Our plan was to keep him slightly ahead of his class and not let him get behind so we were on top of his primary years, always checking his books etc to make sure he was keeping up. By about age 7 or 8 feedback from teachers at parents evenings and reports was clearly that he was doing well and far above expectation's - it shocked us as he didnt show much interest and no enthusiasm but he got results.

That continued through the best secondary we could get for him in the area as per league tables but also from the ethos of the school, how the staff and pupils were during open days. Not private but state. Some pupils (and staff) at some open days weren’t engaging, looked miserable, etc but at the one we finally choose,there was an air of enthusiasm and happiness and that’s what clinched it for DS and us!

Although he continued to do well at the comp, it was without enthusiasm for learning -he did what he was told but that was it. However he was happy and swept the board with top grades at GCSE and all A* at A level and then a First degree in Maths - again no enthusiasm even at Uni - he just plodded and got results from doing bare minimum really.

All I’m saying is that love of learning and enthusiasm isn’t always reflected in outcomes, happiness, etc. What we would say is that non academic aspects like how well the school deal with bullying and pastoral care and happiness at school is very important, maybe even more important than teaching quality. No one is going to thrive in a bullying or miserable environment!

One of the issues, I suspect even in London, is that there are very few 'have your cake and eat it' locations ie local access to a grammar and to a fully functioning comp, not compromised by the presence of an adjacent grammar taking a proportion of the top sets away. There will be some and I do see MN threads pop up from time to time and, obviously, this is then reflected in house prices. If you are located more deeply in comp territory and in an area that is mixed socio-economically, then your DC is likely to experience a good comp education with the benefits of flexible setting that allows for variable development paths and emerging interests.

Ultimately it could be argued that 'a school does not make the child' and that is particularly true of grammars and their massive reliance on prior academic attainment. The risk with a focus on seeing 11+ and grammar as the golden path is that other attributes and interests may not be as fully explored or encouraged, and yet they may be the pathway to your DC learning the benefits and rewards that come from focus and effort, rather than just naturally enjoying the formal primary school class setting and getting into the positive feedback loop that way.

I don't know about North London but you can live in Sutton & have the option of trying for those grammars plus Tiffins and then be in catchment for Glenthorne or Harris Sutton

Kingston way you can still apply to Sutton grammars but have The Kingston Academy which is very good. Then some good states Richmond way.

DS didn't speak ridiculously early but made none of the common (and cute) grammatical errors, never referred to himself in the third person, all his irregular past tense vowels were correct ( ran, saw,seen etc), knew his colours by 18m, his numbers by 3 and his letters by 4. Went to school doing simple arithmetic. Knew his times tables to 12 by October half term in year 2. Was upclassed in yr 4 to a yr5/6 class. Superselective grammar aged 11( only just hot in off the waiting list though), on track for a first class STEM degree from Oxbridge.

We knew when they were babies. It was in the eyes, they took everything in and were curious throughout. Early talkers, early readers, early counters. Playgroup leader said ds was the brightest toddler she had ever met. One child is alpha, one is beta.

They got 45 IB points and 3 A*s and grade 8 music respectively. One is sporty, one is musical. They took firsts from Oxford and Cambridge.

DS did his PhD at Cambridge and is an early career academic with a highly rated monograph already published. DD is a secondary teacher, and doing very well.

They are 30 and 27. It was blatantly obvious.

DH has a brain the size of a planet. Academically I was mediocre, dropped out of uni and hated school. Loved work.