Thoughts on large (280) vs smaller (130) state secondaries?

[ParentOfOne]

I appreciate there is no single right answer to this, so I'd be curious to hear a few different perspectives.

The two state secondaries we like the most are very different: one is pretty big, with 280 students, while the other only has 130.
Academically, the larger school is probably a tad better, but the other one seems fairly valid, too.

Our main concern is to do with the social aspect, and with the fact that our child is a bit shy, and is the kind of person who needs some time to break the ice and form new friendships.

• The big school might be overwhelming and might make her feel lonely; she may end up in classes of always different people, which will keep on changing as students move between sets
• On the other hand, maybe not so much in Y7 but in Y8, with a bit of luck, she might have familiarised with enough kids that she shouldn't feel lonely? We're not sure what to think
• The smaller school doesn't have a 6th form, but we wouldn't rule it out just for that.
• The small school will be less overwhelming and should make it less likely that she ever feels lonely, but would she miss out on a big development and growth opportunity by not going to the big school? Would being outside of her comfort zone be an important way to mature, or does it just risk being counterproductive?

PS Of course we appreciate that we may not have the luxury of getting our first choice

280 pupils in total or do you mean an intake of 280 each year?

I should have clarified: I meant an intake of 280 new pupils every year in the large school, and 130 every year in the other one

Bigger school = more money = better staffing structure.
Given the current underfunding plus teacher retention crisis, I'd go for the bigger school which would have more of a buffer against these factors, hopefully reducing the staff turnover/supply teachers your daughter comes across and also reducing the violent /disruptive behaviours she will face from other pupils.

I also think a wider pool of children increases the likelihood of her finding friends with shared interests, especially if hers are niche. Also more children=she can change friendship groups if necessary, rather than sticking to one her whole school life because there are no alternatives.

Does the school treat them as a cohort of 280? I have known of schools who sort of split themselves in two, and operate as if two 140-intake.

I remember talking about a big school once and asking how the headteacher could possibly know all the pupils. The replay was, "Don't be silly. They don't even know all the teachers!"

I’d be inclined to go for the bigger school tbh @ParentOfOne

280 in a year is very big school but that can certainly have benefits:

• Greater range of GCSE options
• Better range of clubs
• More chance to find people you get on with – be that Magic the Gathering or footie
• Good number of teachers meaning you should have specialists at least for GCSE years

OTOH there is a small school near me of a similar size to your local one (about 650 with no sixth form) and staff and students I know there rave about how everyone knows everyone and it is really caring and supportive. But a big school can be that too.

280 would probably be about normal now, if not a bit small. 130 per year is very small, I don't know of any local schools near me that are that small other than brand new ones that aren't at full capacity yet. My concerns would be - why is the school so small and how financially is it keeping going? Is it part of a larger school, or a larger group of schools that share some costs or facilities? There will probably be limited course options at GCSE and more limited facilities for sports etc.

280 would probably be about normal now, if not a bit small.

That's certainly not true at least in my area (East Mids).

By far the biggest school in my area has just under 2000 students, inc a sixth form of about 4-500, so that's about 300 per year for KS3 and 4. But the vast majority of local schools have about 1,000-1200 students inc a sixth form, so about 180-200 in a year.

Not that it really makes much difference to the OP's question, but no, 280 in a year is not a small school. It is very likely to be the biggest school in the area.

I think in general more children=more chance of finding friends.

My experience with my child's own (bigger than yours) school is that it's highly unlikely that your child will mix with everyone in the year group. In fact in Year 7, they adopted an approach of teaching most subjects in the same class group and the few others in a group mixed with 2 other classes. So your child spent most of their class time with the same 29 other people and all of their class time with fewer than 89 other people. Schools are generally conscious of helping their children to settle in! A question for open day anyway.

I'm also assuming your child is at most Year 5 as next year applications are already made, so by the time they start Year 7 in 18 months time they will also be more grown up and able to cope than they are now.

(280 in a year is probably average in my area; certainly wouldn't be considered "large").

I think in general more children=more chance of finding friends.

Yes. I went to two secondary schools (because we moved), and much preferred the larger one despite being a shy diffident child.

Just for context on school sizes, I googled and the average secondary school size (a couple of years ago) is (or was) just over 1,000 pupils (so 200 in a year or fewer if it has a sixth form).

About 10% of secondary schools (in 2012, data is old, but figures won’t have changed that much) had more than 1500 pupils (= 300 per year unless sixth form is included).

I guess it varies a lot from area to area. Certs 2,000 pupils is by a long long way the biggest school in Derbyshire.

My DCs school is about 280 per year. They have 2 groups per year that initially they have classes between. I went to a 180 per year school.

It doesn’t feel too big. Parents evening the teachers know even my quiet child well. I see a lot of great interaction between pupils and teachers, They have a very good range of academic subjects that suit my DC. Their GCSE options weren’t restricted by timetable constraints. They have sets now they are in GCSE years. Lots of after school clubs.

Downsides are my DC don’t play any sport for the school, which maybe they would if smaller school. Unsporty me got roped into hockey for the school when I was a teenager.

But overall one 280 school can be as different to another 280 school as it might be to a 180 school.

On the friend thing, just to give the flip side, DD1 went to a huge school with 240 intake. Bounced around different friendship groups for 5 years. In a way it was good, because when her friends were being shit, she could walk away. But she also never learned to analyse her own behaviour in these blow ups.

DD2 goes to a tiny school, 30 per year (yes, it's independent). We worried that she'd have nowhere to turn if she fell out with her friends. Instead all the girls are very good at resolving their issues, there's a lot more compromise, and the staff help them talk through their disagreements and find common ground. She realises some of these girls will be friends for life, some will fade into acquaintances, if that.

It's great preparation for work... you don't get to pick who you spend 8 hours a day with, you find your closest people, and figure out how to make it work with the rest.

Look at...

• how classes are arranged. Do they split the year, teach mainly in form groups, set across the year etc.
• options at GCSE. We have a 2 class secondary school locally, who all do the same GCSEs as an extrreme example! But bigger schools can mean more options
• extracurricular options. If you want something mainstream like boys football, smaller might mean a better chance of making the team. On the other hand, bigger schools could have more niche options.
• facilities. These will ve different between schools. My friends school has a climbing wall. Ours has its own campsite and an outdoors education programme as core curriculum (camping, hiking, team work skills etc)

My dd school has a 240 intake. They split registration, tutorial groups and games/PE by sex. Then they have core lessons with their class and are in smaller (different groups) for more practical lessons (HE, science etc). Sounds like a timetabling nightmare but dd gets to have lessons with lots of different groups so increases likelihood of meeting your tribe.

Do those figures include private secondary schools (which tend to be smaller?). We have one near us that only takes 25 in a year (which I do think is too small).

I agree it varies by area. I'm in a mid-sized city and our smallest secondaries take 150 in a year and the biggest 480. Whereas my friend in rural Wales sends her child to a school with 90 in a year, and that's normal to her. I guess the takeaway for OP is that individual schools are used to being the size that they are and making it work for their students.

Goodness, you forget how big some schools are when you live in NI. My son goes to a local state high school and the total school population is 180! Intake of around 30 per year and no sixth form but for my DS (who can be shy) having the teachers know every kid by name and a smaller school has meant a lot more meaningful contact with staff, and making a good fist of making friends with the small selection he has. Bullying is caught quickly, very tough on mobile phone usage because they can easily police it etc… it was definitely the best option for him.

I think bigger is better if your child struggles to get to know people. 130 isn't really small enough to work in the sense of everyone knowing everyone, even with no sixth form, as there will still be hundreds of pupils in the school as a whole. (Not sure this is really ever a thing, aside from very small/boarding/selective schools)

Bigger means more opportunities for the more niche things. I'd think of 130 per year as being medium sized which is fine if your DC gets on with pretty much anyone.

I'm sure they won't be changing classes all the time because the school will be aware of the fact that pupils need to spend time together to get to know each other.

I think both those schools are big enough that you just go with the one you and your child likes better. Even the small one has four large classes per year, which is not unusual (here at least).

With knowingva range of pupils...
DDs school has 210 (yr9) and 240(yr7). They had a small party at Halloween... the friends invited were Yr7-Yr10. Mainly friends made at extracurricular clubs, not in lessons.

We have a local smaller school and bigger school and although ds would have been better suited to a smaller school we went for the big one as the options at GCSE and A-level were much, much greater. He didn't find his tribe all through and I think that was partly down to being such a large school and always having different kids in his classes, he found it difficult to have the time to get to know anyone - so bigger schools aren't always better in that way. Academically though it was the much better option.

Thank you for the comments. To be clear, the question was specifically on the social aspect for a relatively shy child - so not about academic, GCSE subjects, funding, clubs, etc. On those aspects the bigger school is a tad better but the smaller school would be a solid choice, too, so the question is NOT about that.

"DD1 went to a huge school with 240 intake. Bounced around different friendship groups for 5 years. In a way it was good, because when her friends were being shit, she could walk away. But she also never learned to analyse her own behaviour in these blow ups.
DD2 goes to a tiny school, 30 per year (yes, it's independent). We worried that she'd have nowhere to turn if she fell out with her friends. Instead all the girls are very good at resolving their issues, there's a lot more compromise
"

Yes, that's precisely what we are struggling with.
In a bigger school there is a greater chance of finding a group of people you get along with.
But I also wonder about the potential for loneliness, especially at the beginning.
The big school uses sets in most subjects; so maybe you have just started getting closer to another kid, then you or they are moved into another set, etc etc

"he found it difficult to have the time to get to know anyone - so bigger schools aren't always better in that way"

Yes, that is one of our key concern. With a more extrovert child we'd go for the bigger school in a heartbeat.

My son went to a school with 100 in his year and the teachers, even the head, knew them well by year 11. It was very family atmosphere and he had a very positive time.

Not enough children played an instrument to have a decent band/orchestra, and some sports teams struggled to get enough players, and gcse options were limited by staff/class sizes. It also meant there wasnt a big faculty team to pick up slack if a teacher was ill, but some of the staff issues like moderation and support were mitigated by being in a trust.

but the flipside was you tended to get picked if you wanted to do something so you got lots of opportunities.

I actually think behaviour has more impact than size on whether a child is overwhelmed. A small chaotic school will be worse than a large calm one and vice versa. Another factor us were tge facilities designed for that number or are they squeezed in.

I would check with the school whether they teach in sets from Y7 or whether at least some subjects are mixed ability so they are with their form group for most/all of the day. I think that would have the biggest influence on a stable friendship group.

Also a bigger school might have a greater range or more niche clubs for your child to meet her tribe.

Yes for sure on your last point.

I mean I agree with most here that the bigger school is probably a better choice overall.

I am a bit dubious about the figures as they are rather old. But 320 state schools in 2012 had more than 1500 pupils - and there were 3,452 secondaries in England in 2022. Not sure if that includes state schools or not. But that's where I got my 10% from.

A bigger school has worked well for my more socially anxious DD. There's a good range of extra curricular clubs and that is where she found most of her friends, rather than in lessons. Are there good clubs at the smaller school? It's pure chance if you end up in a lesson with people you share common interests with. Much more likely to find your group if there's some niche clubs going on.

I also wouldn't necessarily worry about sets changing constantly and losing friendships that way. Has the school said how often movement happens? At ours it's just at the end of a school year and it's really minimal movement.