Thoughts on large (280) vs smaller (130) state secondaries?

[ParentOfOne]

I appreciate there is no single right answer to this, so I'd be curious to hear a few different perspectives.

The two state secondaries we like the most are very different: one is pretty big, with 280 students, while the other only has 130.
Academically, the larger school is probably a tad better, but the other one seems fairly valid, too.

Our main concern is to do with the social aspect, and with the fact that our child is a bit shy, and is the kind of person who needs some time to break the ice and form new friendships.

• The big school might be overwhelming and might make her feel lonely; she may end up in classes of always different people, which will keep on changing as students move between sets
• On the other hand, maybe not so much in Y7 but in Y8, with a bit of luck, she might have familiarised with enough kids that she shouldn't feel lonely? We're not sure what to think
• The smaller school doesn't have a 6th form, but we wouldn't rule it out just for that.
• The small school will be less overwhelming and should make it less likely that she ever feels lonely, but would she miss out on a big development and growth opportunity by not going to the big school? Would being outside of her comfort zone be an important way to mature, or does it just risk being counterproductive?

PS Of course we appreciate that we may not have the luxury of getting our first choice

It is pretty much the luck of the draw socially. In either scenario it simply depends who is in the intake and whether they click with your child. And it all depends how the large school manages their size - one of my DDs went to a very big secondary that was divided vertically into 4 "houses", each of which functioned as a smaller school - had their own assemblies etc. It seemed to work well - she was bored to tears by the work, but I think that would have been the same anywhere.

Another went to a very small rural secondary with a farming emphasis - she did brilliantly as they catered for individuals - her GSCE music class consisted of individual tuition - no one else had opted for the subject so she basically had private tuition for free. But socially it was hard - there was some serious bitchery going on. On the surface it looked like a small caring school, but that intake of girls was a difficult one.

Another went to a private school where they did well, but came away with the idea that they were mediocre because there were some seriously academically gifted all-rounders that gave her that impression.

All 3 went to the local sixth form college afterwards, which they loved.

The only way forward is to visit and to ask all the detailed questions about pastoral care in particular; and to quiz anyone you know with children there.

The conclusion I came to though was that you do not really know a school till you have a child there.

I would avoid the bigger school. They become hugely impersonal and don’t tend to push students much.

"Also a bigger school might have a greater range or more niche clubs for your child to meet her tribe."
This is actually a very good point, possibly one of the strongest, actually!

On sets/streaming:
the big school uses sets.

The small school uses a weird combination of sets and streaming. It places the "top" 30 students, as assessed by some kind of test they administer in the first semester, into a "grammar stream". The other students are divided into sets. FWIW, based on how she's doing for the 11+ preparation, she may have a decent chance of getting into this grammar stream, but I still think it's marketing bull and that''s not why we are considering the school. It's bull because it doesn't seem that different from normal sets, so it seems like a marketing strategy to trigger a Pavlovian response in parents who hear the word 'grammar' and go nuts.

I would check the range of subjects offered at GCSE. Is there a choice of MFL, can they do more than one? can they do triple science, what arts GCSEs do the offer ( dance? Music? Drama?).

Children’s interests and aptitude evolves and it would be good to have opportunities open.

The same with the extra curricular offer.

Including music lessons.

The ‘grammar stream’ sounds like normal top sets / top stream.

Unless they give them some extra privileges which set them apart from the rest of the school which might not go down well.

If she is bright and a promising 11+ candidate, the GCSE option questions are even more important.

Thank you all for worrying about GCSE options, but, like I have said a couple of times, we are happy with the range of GCSE subjects on offer. That is NOT the question. The question is on the social aspect for a relatively shy child.

My ds is in y7 of a 300 intake school but it’s split down the middle timetable wise so there’s a pool of 150 kids he has classes with and he never comes the other 150 in classes and won’t do at all for the next five years even for GCSE options. So in terms of “friends options” it might as well be half the size.

he came from a single form intake primary, I thought it would be a massive shock but he’s settled pretty well.

What I will say is with such a massive school they have a very hardline approach to rules especially wrt to uniform and homework. With so many kids I imagine there just isn’t any scope for flexibility which you might get in a smaller school

The question is on the social aspect for a relatively shy child.
It's probably impossible to predict because year-groups can have a different vibe, even within the same school. (For example, there was outcry in DS's year when they failed to send anyone to Oxbridge. All cohorts for years and years either side did, but for some reason DS's year didn't. They were the awkward / non-conformist squad.).

What are most of her current Junior school friends intending?

I dont think size will be the biggest factor for whether a shy chikd makes friends. I think how it's structured will be more important.

Eg my sons small school did vertical tutor which meant there was only a few people in your year group in your tutor group. The idea was that year 11 would be less scary and adopt 'thier year 7s'. The reality was they didn't mix.

But he was in very consistent classes from the October half term and that did let friendships flourish. But that could be the same in a big school.

What I would say was at primary we found boys and girls mixed more, but at secondary it was much more divided, at least for the first few years So your 130 is might be nearer 60 if that pattern follows.

"What are most of her current Junior school friends intending?"
They will most likely go to other schools.
A combination of private and other schools which are too far for us, where we'd never get in, but they would either because they live closer or because they have a sibling there.

Mine went to the smaller secondary. It's muddied a bit by the fact that their primary was tiny with no clearly defined "destination" kids moved onto - they spread around about 4 local schools, but the bigger schools were nearer, and academically slightly better - but have issues with bullying that aren't dealt with, and I just preferred the smaller, more nurturing vibe of the smaller school and the way the staff interacted with kids.

I wouldn't make the size of the school a factor in choosing which one. The feel for the school, the pastoral care, the academic results, the progress 8, GCSE streaming, the facilities, extra curricular activities and subject choice at GCSE are all more important. Large schools tend to group the classes to give students a chance to get to know a number of pupils better and will stream for GCSEs, so the kids only ever mix with part of the intake in lesson terms.

DD went to a secondary school where she thought that she wouldn't know anyone. However, due to local clubs (Brownies, dance classes, that sort of thing) she found that she did know other girls.

I suppose that it's sort of the opposite of what some have said above: rather than wait until Big School and the extra-curricular clubs there, get to know like-minded folk beforehand.

We have 120 per year and no sixth form. It has pros and cons. On the plus side its not too overwhelming, especially if you are coming from a small junior school, and the teachers know everyone's name. The downside for us is really about music - while the music department is fantastic and they have a great jazz band, there's no way they could maintain an orchestra at all - they struggle to have a wind group. And the choir is tiny and doesn't have a single boy in it. The same is true for sports - it's hard to put out full teams when you have such a small cohort, although all the schools they compete against are similar so it sort of evens out.

By contrast the sixth form college has 2,500 in just two years so comes as something of a shock to all of them!

@ParentOfOne I'm going against the tide here and saying we chose a small intake (smaller than your small option). School chosen specifically because she is shy/quiet and very well behaved so we didn't want her getting lost.
It has worked brilliantly. Made the transition from a rural village primary much easier and she has grown in confidence immeasurably. Nowhere for them to hide and all the teachers know the names of all the kids. She has been able to stand out rather than get lost in a crowd. It was definitely the right choice for her.

I went to a larger secondary, 250 intake per year. Dh went to the smaller secondary nearby which had around 90 per year. He loved his school, it felt like a family. I didn’t mind mine but only knew a few kids in my year, most teachers didn’t know me, although there were lots of clubs it was harder to get into the sports teams or a part in the school play because they had so many to choose from. DS is very quiet in school so we opted for the smaller school for him and he’s really thriving now. Most of his primary friends go there too which helped and he is so much more confident now. I think it depends on the child themselves and their personality and also where a lot of their friends are going.

" rather than wait until Big School and the extra-curricular clubs there, get to know like-minded folk beforehand."

She has done 4 activities outside of school these last few years, and currently does 2.
She became really good friends with 2 kids, who have since moved. She has not got close to any of the kids in her current 2 clubs.

I suppose there are multiple ways to look at it: maybe the big school will give her more chances to meet like-minded people as there will be a bigger pool of kids and many more clubs and activities.

Or maybe the small school will be better, because she really needs more time and more prolonged exposure to other kids before getting close, and that's easier to get in the smaller school.

Where's a crystal ball when you need one...

I think it's comforting to be able to see familiar faces, even if you are not particularly close to them.

I'd agree with those who say this depends so much on the peer group. My DS went to a large secondary school with 100 others from his primary school. He was put in a class (most lessons in same class) with a close friend. Close friend unexpectedly left at Christmas, and DS spent the rest of Year 7 trying to find other friends.

Whereas DD went to the same secondary school with no one she really liked in her class, made friends with 2 other girls on the first day and they stayed her friends all the way through school (they are now 18 and still close).

I agree that "large" and "small" are both very subjective and area dependent. My DC went to a secondary with 160 per year and that felt absolutely massive to us, but then they'd been at a primary school with less than 10 pupils in each year group and some of the other secondaries in the area are much smaller than theirs. In other areas a school with a PAN of 160 would be considered small.
I don't think that bigger or smaller schools are inherently better. Their are pros and cons either way but the way a school is run determines how good it is, far more than the number of pupils.
From the social perspective, whilst obviously there's more than twice as many kids to choose friends from in the bigger school I'd think it's unlikely that most people wouldn't be able to find at least a few others that they get along with out of a year group of 130, and I wonder if, in practical terms having 280 in the year materially increases that probability. In my experience, my children made friends with others in their form predominantly, plus a few who attended the same extracurricular activities. Later on, at GCSE and A level they met more different pupils as there was more mixing, but in the first few years most teaching was done in forms, and even in subjects that were setted it was pupils from the same half of the year. So out of the 160 pupils in their year group I would guess my DC only interacted with about 50 on a regular basis. If there had been twice as many forms I still think they would have spent most of their time with roughly the same number of children. My youngest made a new close friend in 6th form.They had both been there since year 7 but they'd never been in a class together before and had different hobbies so had never come across each other previously. They didn't even know each others names until 6th form. Big groups tend to break into smaller ones anyway so the amount of social contacts may not be that different in the bigger school. Choice of subjects in the exam years and range of extracurriculars may be more of an issue though so I would look carefully at that.

In a larger school, they’ll probably be taught in half or quarter year bands, so they won’t have the large numbers to deal with. If your child takes time to develop friendships, that scenario won’t be much different from the smaller school, but there will be the economies of scale that a larger establishment offers.

Also, PAN can change. When we moved here, when DD was in Yr5, PAN was 180. Her year PAN increased to 210. (Shes now in Yr9)
And its now increased again to 240. (Supposed to be one off current Yr7, but has been now announced as permanent).

But yes... unfortunately none of us have Crystal balls. You can ask how they help pupils struggling socially. But it does seem to be luck.

Bigger every time (and that's a with a DC in a school with 450 in a year).

More resources, more teachers, more options, more friendship choices, more chance they have met a child like your DC before and more options for flexibility for sets, subject choices and extra curricular.

They don't even know all the teachers!"
@senua
That is greatly exaggerated. In our school there are 2250 kids and 50 teachers + few other staff members. Of course the headmaster knows them

Surely that can't be right? That's a very high pupil:teacher ratio which would lead to absolutely massive class sizes. I've just had a look at the staff list on my DC's former school's website and there are 91 teachers and 95 other staff listed for a school of around 1200 pupils.