Thoughts on large (280) vs smaller (130) state secondaries?

[ParentOfOne]

I appreciate there is no single right answer to this, so I'd be curious to hear a few different perspectives.

The two state secondaries we like the most are very different: one is pretty big, with 280 students, while the other only has 130.
Academically, the larger school is probably a tad better, but the other one seems fairly valid, too.

Our main concern is to do with the social aspect, and with the fact that our child is a bit shy, and is the kind of person who needs some time to break the ice and form new friendships.

• The big school might be overwhelming and might make her feel lonely; she may end up in classes of always different people, which will keep on changing as students move between sets
• On the other hand, maybe not so much in Y7 but in Y8, with a bit of luck, she might have familiarised with enough kids that she shouldn't feel lonely? We're not sure what to think
• The smaller school doesn't have a 6th form, but we wouldn't rule it out just for that.
• The small school will be less overwhelming and should make it less likely that she ever feels lonely, but would she miss out on a big development and growth opportunity by not going to the big school? Would being outside of her comfort zone be an important way to mature, or does it just risk being counterproductive?

PS Of course we appreciate that we may not have the luxury of getting our first choice

It is 8 form. 30 pupils per class is not an unusual number here in London.
50 is the number of teachers and not TA or SEN and so on

91 teachers per 1200 sounds rather unbelievable in a state school as it means that there is 1 teacher per 13 pupils. Maybe overall 91 staff members including teachers or it is private

2250 divided by 50 gives 45 pupils per teacher. Doesn't sound likely.
Love the dismissive plus a "few other staff members" comment.

Maybe among older age groups there are less forms- I don't know. My son is in y7 and during parent's evening they told us that there is 50 teachers in the school. I can send you private message with the name of the school and you can call them and ask - easy to check. Just express the wish.
There is nothing dismissive in saying " and other staff members". Nothing- you are fishing the problem where it doesn't exist. They didn't tell us how many staff members have entire school and only no of teachers was mentioned.

2250 divided by 50 is 45 pupils per teacher assuming they are all full time and all in the classroom all the time which seems massively unlikely.
I did miscount the teachers on DC's school staff list actually. 4 of the SLT also have teaching responsibilities and so are listed twice, once as SLT and once under their subject department. So there are 87 people on the teaching staff list. TAs are on the associate staff list along with people like the librarians,lab technicians and pastoral staff as well as the domestic staff, maintenance team etc. Total paid school staff of all types is 182.
It's a state comprehensive. The staff list is in the public domain and I have no reason to disbelief it. For comparison I had a look at the website of our next nearest secondary which is a bit bigger and they have about 225 people on their staff list in total so probably much the same ratio.

If you go on the government website, its gives the official number of staff at the school (both actual and full time equivalent).

For our local school of 1000ish pupils, its 117 members of staff, with the equivalent of 69.6 full time teachers.

My son is in y7 and during parent's evening they told us that there is 50 teachers in the school.
If that's correct then they have a problem and must be using a lot of supply teachers or unqualified staff to cover classes. It would be arithmetically impossible otherwise.

That's a worryingly tiny number @TheGoldenGate

Just looked up DC's school - London comprehensive.
2527 pupils
195 Full-time equivalent teachers.
220 staff overall.
Ratio of 12.9 pupils to FTE teacher which reflects reality. DC (Y11) is in class of 12 for quite a few subjects.

Maybe then 50 teachers are involved in teaching y7 and that is what they meant? ( And of course they also are teaching in other year groups+ there are other teachers)

It is in top 100 UK schools when it comes to results at GCSE- so not really.

I made a mistake. I was looking for no of teachers which I have not found on gov. page but it is not 2250 but 1250 upps

If your child is shy their best chance of making good friends might be the clubs so I think you have to look at the whole picture of what is on offer at each school.
The larger school having a sixth form may attract some higher calibre teachers. They may also offer a greater range of subjects.
My shy dd started at prep school in a tiny class and then went to state schools. Interestingly she was happier in the bigger schools! In a bigger school there is more chance of finding like minded people.
The school leadership is another important thing to consider.

8 x 30 pupils makes 1200 pupils (plus sixth form) not 2250 anyway so 50 teachers might be right.

Agree 50 teachers for 2250 students is not workable. We had that sort of number in my old school of about 1,200 or fewer students.

Edit: I see the pp has corrected the figure!

Yeap. My error. I went as advised to look for teachers numbers ( not found it) but found that it is less pupils by 1000. So mea culpa. Apologies ( blushing)

My child goes to a school with 250 in the year group - it is fine. As others have said, it isn't the whole year group mixing with each other and seeing lots of different children in each lesson. Instead, for the majority of lessons they are in their tutor group. In other subjects, there are sets, or groups for PE where they join with two other tutor groups, so they are in a group of 90 - not mixing with the whole year group. From my observations, this actually works well for friendships. It is like a smaller school within a bigger school (with all the advantages that bigger schools bring, as PPs have said).
100% I would go for the bigger school.
No sixth form is a negative as not being available for your child, but also, it will be a less academic school (no offence intended to anyone) and they will struggle to retain good teaching staff.

Sounds like on paper they would both be fine. Have you visited them on open evenings, as maybe the way to go is where you and your DD get the best vibe from. Also ask them about what pastoral support they offer if you think you child may need it.

Failing that just go on whichever is the easiest journey to and from!

Mine are at a big school. 330 a year. Common here. But their primary was huge so they know no different