Any experience of Kings Maths School vs LAE for 6th form?

[JusteanBiscuits]

My son has applied to KCLMS for 6th form and also to LAE Stratford.

He wants to study Maths at University, and truly loves the subject. His heart is set on KCLMS, but as that is entirely maths / physics, I wonder if going to LAE (his second choice) would be better for the all round experience? Meeting a wider variety of people, a much wider selection of extra curricular clubs etc. I worry the excitement at 16 of being immersed in maths might wear off, and being somewhere with a wider curriculum might be better?

Any experience would be appreciated. Thanks

You're coming from a POV where you know these places exist, know about 6th form options, and been to university so have some experience of the system.

I didn't even know there were specialist / selective 6th forms! None of my siblings, or their children, have been to 6th form or university. I wasn't expecting to end up with an incredibly academic child! Everything has been completely led by him but I obviously want to support him as best I can, and I am also allowed to feel disappointed that it looks like he won't have the opportunities that HE wants. Sadly, if you don't know things exist, you're not going to go looking for them.

Nope! I wasn’t educated in the same country as my children are so it was all new to me when ds1 got to that age!

To me, it quickly became clear that it is a complicated system so I made a complete nuisance of myself at school and at the various other options until I felt that I understood what we were up against and what needed doing and when.

It sounds as if your dc’s current school and careers advisor could have been much more helpful.

I'm not sure the school even has a careers advisor??

To be fair, as a mumsnetter you are already a step ahead of many other parents because you are asking questions - that's what other parents do. People did tell you at the start of the thread that the schools your son applied to are very competitive.

Going to university 25-30 years ago would not have educated you about specialist sixth forms because they were all established within the last 10-12 years as a result of the Conservatives' free school programme.

Most schools don't advertise other sixth form options because they are rival provision in a funding model that is competing for students - simple as that. At the transition from key stage 3 to key stage 4 they are obliged by the "Baker law" to circulate a list of studio schools, but I don't think the same rule applies for sixth form transfer.

Most parents find out about sixth form options by word of mouth.

Strangely just got the email to say he didn't get a place. And that they won't offer feedback on why no place.

Boy in his maths class applied for exactly the same a-levels it turns out (they're mates), and has significantly lower predicted grades (7 and 8's) but got an offer. So it's really very strange indeed. Only main difference is he has had a lot of tuition, so I wonder if paying for tuition might have played a part?

@JusteanBiscuits Instead of putting energy into theories, lodge an appeal. There is info on how to do that in the admissions policy. Give them the evidence you have of the other two boys. Then they will be obliged to give their reasoning.

Word of mouth from where though!! That's what I mean.

I am actually going to email his head of year and check what predicted grades they sent. I know for his initial KCLMS reference they gave the grades they get given when going into Year 7 - so mainly 7's (because they need the improvement score!). Where as his predicted are nearly all 9's. He achieved 9's in all but one subject in his mocks (MFL he scored an 8). This is just what makes me wonder.

I just really feel that I have let him down. And don't know what I can do about it. To have a child so excited about academics, who has great ambitions academically yet without £££'s no way to support it just feels a bit shit.

Ad like I keep saying, I just wanted to vent. And that's OK. I'm not asking anywhere here to fix this. It's just upsetting.

Children can achieve at the highest level even from weaker sixth forms. I would not suggest lodging an appeal. It may not be what your DS wants, but being the “star” of his school’s sixth form, mathematically speaking, might well be very helpful to him in terms of university entrance for a STEM subject. If he had been one of the absolutely top scorers in testing then he quite likely would have been offered a place at KMS, which suggests he may be (while obviously still extremely gifted!) not on track to the be “top of the top”. In that case, he would perhaps not have stood out in the same way and been one of the leading students, most likely to, say, get into Oxbridge. Whereas from his own school’s sixth, he is probably going to be the top performing STEM student and has a better chance.

I am not at all saying this to put down your son, just asking you to think of it from a different POV. He doesn’t need to get into one of these selective sixths in order to fly high in terms of A level accomplishments and university entrance (and after).

To be honest, in some ways it's harder if you think you know the system but you really don't! It's completely different to when I went in 1990. In some ways it's better to start from scratch with no knowledge or expectation of how you think it works. As I mentioned, LAE functions completely differently to my school in the 90s or my son's school in the 2020s. And I only heard about it from word of mouth, friend's child went there last year.

As regards the rejection. I'm so sorry to hear that. I don't think the school would know about any private tuition unless it was in the reference. It could be something as simple as a mistake filling in the application form. It's so frustrating they won't tell you.

"Word of mouth from where though!! That's what I mean."

From friends, and from Mumsnet, or even just from a Google search, or by following the news when the A level results are published in August, or when the latest rankings are published later in the year, or when newspapers publish their own league tables, etc etc. You probably heard about KCLMS and LAE by one or more of these methods. You seem to have read the admissions policies. You may just have underestimated the number of other parents doing the same.

As an example, his current 6th form doesn't offer any additional support for those looking toward Oxbridge. They have a specific stream for those wanting to do medicine or dentistry, but in their words "we don't really have pupils who go on to Oxbridge". But it's not just about university, it's about him not being bored at school!

And he is bored!! His current maths teacher, who teaches a-level maths, doesn't know what to do with him already and sets him a-level work to do in class. To give an idea, he got 99% on his maths mocks over all. The problem is, kids disengage when they're bored in classes. So I do need to find a solution. I'm not going to appeal as it wouldn't be their fault if his current school sent them incorrect predicted grades.

I'm going to email the teacher who wrote the reference and ask for a copy. I guess if they did include the wrong predicted grades there isn't anything I could do anyway.

Ours don’t advertise it but I now know that one visits once a fortnight - again, I had to ask to find out!

@JusteanBiscuits I know it’s frustrating that the school doesn’t have a specific support programme for Oxbridge, but that is common for lower performing sixth forms and children still apply and get in. Don’t share this viewpoint with him as you don’t want to discourage him. If he is a top mathematician he may well want to take a crack at Cambridge. Has he looked at the STEP website? These are advanced papers and he won’t be able to do them right away! They are beyond A level standard. But may be interesting just to take a look at as he would be expected to do them at the end of Year 13 if he applies to Cambridge.

Many top students across the UK apply to top universities (not only Oxbridge) without any formal support programme at school. I know it’s frustrating to feel he hasn’t got the structured system in place, but this is not a rare situation he is in, I promise. This is the norm for a kid like him. It doesn’t prevent this group of students from excelling and they are not only capable of getting into top universities without a formal Oxbridge (/ Russell group) programme, but also of getting the top grades once they go to uni! Plenty of state school students (even from poorer schools) end up with the highest grades in their year at university.

I think that's a good idea. You can't change anything but it may help your DS understand and accept more if he knows why.

My DD got her rejection too. It's actually her friend who told her about the school and she really wanted to apply, she's very ambitious. On the back of her enthusiasm, her brother applied. She was predicted mostly 8s, 1 x 7, 1 or 2 x 9s. In some ways I'm glad she won't have to go through stress on results day, waiting so day then heading you haven't got in. How awful to be hoping for a place and then not get it, feeling rubbish about what are probably fantastic results, unable to celebrate properly etc. I think DS2 will be ok as he's less emotional and will take it on the chin. It won't be as crushing for him, but he still might feel disappointed on results day, which is awful if you have a plethora of 8s and 9s.

If the school put in the wrong predicted grades it is worth asking them to write again with the right ones. It won't change anything Immediately but might help a little on results day. (This happened to DD when applying for a very selective private sixth form where she then got a place off the wait list. The message being that she was always comfortably an A* pupil in one of her A level subjects, not just someone who performed well on exam day.)

There is a load of support for potential Cambridge applicants, including special courses, mentors etc. I would post on the Higher Education board and ask.

STEP is different from A levels and requires more thinking and problem solving skills. More maths challenge type of thing. It is worth exploring what is out there and making use of it. (And from observation if the school is not able to provide support, or actually even if it does, tutoring from specialist tutors is not uncommon.)

Yes it is a chaotic system but that then allows a level of choice. The alternative might be to tell everyone to stick to their catchment school, with selection by ability to pay a large mortgage. .

I'm putting this post here for posterity. Hello future UK maths parents who live near enough to London for their DCs to be able to realistically attend the high achieving London state sixth forms mentioned in this thread. Apologies for length.

1. If you are already on Mumsnet that is great news for supporting your brainy DC, because as we all know MN is a great trove of insight and intel.
2. Your DC will probably have been applying their brainpower to the challenge anyway and will have looked it all up on the internet and YouTube by themselves ... So although you may be a supportive/concerned parent, the DC are probably on it already
3. Before Year 11: If your DC is strong at maths they will probably have been recommended previously, during their school career to date (by their school, or by you Googling) to do Simon Singh's Parallelogram and take UKMT tests annually. Also, Kings Maths and (I think now) Imperial Maths have free after school outreach classes which start in about Year 8 or 9 (these may be state school pupils only, I'm not sure, and there is no relationship to passing the sixth form entrance exams). Your DC attends these classes once a week in term time in person for 1-3 years. If you are reading and you have never heard of these things, look them up right now. Ask your DC's maths teacher about them. They will know (and if in London will probably have the referral information for the outreach classes). Anyway, on the way to Year 11 there are all these opportunities.
4. And BTW Parallelogram and UKMT have additional activities (extra tests, extra classes, summer schools etc) by invitation for the top scorers.
5. At the start of Year 11 or a bit before, get out there with your DC and gather all your info about what schools are in what locations and when the entrance exams are. As a PP mentioned it's a big investment of time (and emotional angst waiting for the results, as this thread shows)... but on the plus side, good practice for future selection processes later in life, where the DC have to take a test and/or interview.
6. What schools? For example, but not restricted to - Kings Maths, Imperial Maths, Harris Westminster, LAE Stratford and Tottenham and some others mentioned on this thread. The important point is that some of these schools have selection criteria related to social and economic background eg they specifically exist and have a mission to increase the representation of under-represented groups in maths.
7. Get all the application forms and predicted grades etc in on time (generally in the October-December period of Year 11)
8. Take the exams at the appointed times - potentially Jan/Feb Year 11 - and go to interviews if invited. Please note: you might find yourself a bit underwhelmed by the experience of seeing these schools in the flesh, meaning that in the end they are just schools, with teachers and kids in them, (and - sorry - there is no polite way to say this - a larger proportion of nerdy dweebs) whatever hype the Sunday Times and other media might say about some of them. Hopefully your DC achieve at least one offer from somewhere, but if not, well, you live in and around London and there are loads of other good options.
9. Keep an eye out for other opportunities eg Kings Maths runs some sort of post-GCSE summer school (I don't know what the selection criteria are) and UKMT has a summer school for top scorers (you have to be invited to this one). Anyway the processes related to these take place in the Easter period of Year 11.
10. Your DC takes the GCSEs (without you in the room 😆😱)
11. Before GCSE results day read the advice on this thread about how places are allocated post-results by some individual schools.
12. If your DC doesn't for some reason attain a selective state sixth form place, there is still plenty of room on the on-ramp to top universities etc and you can support your DC to develop their maths whichever sixth form they attend. In sixth form they can enter for UKMT Gold and British Physics Society test. As a PP said, they can practise on the Cambridge STEP paper. And the London univs - including Imperial, Kings, LSE and others - and Gresham College all have various public lecture programmes which you/the DC can attend for free. Oxford Univ Institute of Maths sometimes has them too. Please note: like any other lectures, some are done well, some are time you will never get back. Check the lecturer on YouTube first and see if they are any good. Possibly, if you can afford it, maybe a private tutor? But I don't really think this is necessary TBH.

Responding to discussion on this thread about lack of information, how do I know all this, above?
Is it because I've got access to some privileged insider knowledge? No!
Is it because I know anything about maths? No! I have no special knowledge of maths, studying maths at university or maths careers. I can add up, that's about it.
It's actually by the power of Mumsnet and by the power of motivated DC themselves - with DC and me both looking stuff up, and me helping with the curation of what I think might be good opportunities and providing transportation to exams etc. Basically, normal for Mumsnet 😎

Important PS: there are also some other "power of" factors involved. The power of maths teachers at DC state school (who have made referrals, set up exam rooms for UKMT after school etc) and the power of the available opportunities eg Simon Singh and co leading from the front and the innovators who have set up the specialist schools, as well as the "modern heritage" opportunities like the UKMT test. So, thank you world, for these! BTW there has been some discussion of private schools in this thread. But for this specific location of London or travellable distance to London I don't think any private schools could really better the educational opportunities that are available, when you put them all together. Which is great!

@sixthformmaths I agree with all the above - fantastic- except for the word "probably" in bullet 2. It's a "may be". I'm calling that out because I know some parents of very self-motivated switched-on DC's think their kids are more deserving than others whose parents give them more help. Maybe they are. But many very bright kids would never reach their potential if they didn't have team-parent to do the research for them. In any case, Mumsnet is much better than The Student Room for accurate and insightful knowledge sharing. 🙂

@upat4 Yes, could just as easily be "maybe". In the end this whole discussion and probably much of parts of MN is really about what "team parent" can do to support DC. I guess I was really trying to highlight that - amongst it all - the DCs sometimes show surprising agency and ability. IMO it's really the internet that has brought this - they can read information on websites, watch YouTube etc (and their parents can post on MN) - which has allowed information to be shared more widely, more quickly, than in previous generations (and obviously with this having its good and bad aspects) 😀

Oddly I would echo that Kings Maths School is probably equal to anything in the private sector for the type of student who wants to be with others who love maths, and who want their classes to move at a fast pace.

That said, Westminster, just over the river will probably teach just as well and will certainly offer a broader education in terms of extra-curricular etc. They will probably be better at US admissions and will offer good bursaries to the truly exceptional. However, and from experience, there is a lot of tutoring going on and a risk that a bright mathematician may think they are just average. I know that DS hesitated before selecting an outside option from the maths department during his first year at LSE, only to be in total shock when he came top of the year. He never came anywhere close at Westminster. Equally a really bright Korean boarder friend started struggling at Cambridge. It turned out that the boy had spent the whole of his Christmas and Easter holidays living at a tutorial college receiving tuition.

I assume this is less of a problem at Kings. I hope so.

Thank you everyone for support. It's been a really hellish 2 weeks, and I think this was just the straw that broke me if that makes sense.

Everything feels better and more positive for some sleep. It was all just the last 2 weeks bubbling over.

@Needmoresleep In your example you mean Westminster private school not Harris Westminster, am I right?

He has been introduced to STEPS as part of the COMPOS course he does. Hopefully that will be enough to keep him stretched!

That’s fantastic, @JusteanBiscuits! Definitely standing him in good stead for university. COMPOS sounds absolutely brilliant for him.

Yes. Plenty of exceptionally strong mathematicians, and some very good teaching. Equally its share of high powered and amitous parents, and boarders coming from cultures where tutoring is prevalent.